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New David Ray Griffin book: 9/11 Contradictions... (36 posts)

  1. albert
    Member

    Hello all,

    Chrissc, maybe you can be a little more specific? Yes, that is all really in DRG's book, for real. (Debunking 911 Debunking) Obviously some of this material is not to be discussed here. I was unaware. So there is a problem in questioning whether a 757 hit the pentagon but no problem for the person posting (on another page) 'Castro says missile hit pentagon' ?
    (Isn't there a quote from Cheney where he mentions the word 'missile' in taking about the attacks?) or any of the other usual speculative statements and conjectures that make up most conversations about 911? Any investigation starts with speculation aiming at the most likely hypothesis.

    Thank you for the links to the Declaration and disinformation pages. I have read them and have no problems with any of it. I am glad to see a high standard is being pursued. (my favorite 911T website has always been Jim Hoffman's -911research.com- for this very reason, no junk science, no ridiculous claims) But in light of the fact that you call these things mentioned in DRG;s books and referenced in my post above, 'debunked theories' maybe you could have a page detailing what is acceptable and what isn't and why. Actually debunking each point, nothing is more convincing than reason. Not everyone is up to the same speed and there is a lot of information out there.

    What a (typical) shame that in such small and important community there is so much division. I am not really familiar with the history or the problems but after reading some posts on other pages of this forum have come across a number of the critiques. (none of which (in my eyes) justify not to signing this thing!) To begin with this is about mass murder, injustice and unprecedented acts of treason. We need to stick together and even if we spit into these types of factions, we should all sign and support this Initiative. Or please give me some good reason to the contrary.

    I was trying to understand why anyone seriously wanting a proper investigation of 911 would be against the NY ballot initiative. (whatever their feelings of the Les Jaimeson). I run my own business and only have very little free time but I'm still been out there getting signatures for this thing because it seems to me like it's this or nothing. And a new and impartial investigation with subpoena power would be an excellent step in the right direction.

    I do not agree at all that if NYers went to the polls in November that they would not vote in favor of a new investigation, the only reason I say this is because of how readily people sign the petition. And almost everyone I talk to (cops and firefighters included) agree this was a staged event or at least, allowed to happen (or, 'Shock & Awe' part 1)

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. truthmover
    Administrator

    Hello Albert,

    It seems we haven't exactly rolled out the red carpet for you here. I'll try to be a bit more specific about why others have been poking fun at you. Its not exactly kind of them, but the TruthMove forum is a place where you are likely to hear about it if you say something that has been refuted by facts or experience.

    Even local businesses had their security camera footage confiscated within hours of the attacks. This is what leads to this kind of speculation. Can you blame for thinking this might a possibility?

    No one here would argue that its not a possibility that something other than a 757 hit the Pentagon. However the issue at hand is not possibility but probability. The movement is not strongly advanced by promoting possibilities. Our various hypotheses have no place in our summaries of the issue or our flyers. The movement has grown as we have promoted the most well established facts and most strongly founded theories. Some would even like to leave out the theories as the facts alone are quite sufficient.

    So go ahead and formulate all the possibilities you can think of. Just don't promote them unless they are supported by the facts. And it is the position of TruthMove that there is insufficient evidence to establish that something other than a 757 hit the Pentagon.

    Regarding the voice-morphing, it seems unlikely, yes, but the entire event has that characteristic.

    The entire event is fantastic but not unlikely.

    Two possible facts, one that cell phones would not work at 30k feet in 2001, and the other was the nature of the calls themselves especially the one from Mark Bingham in which he says to him mother, 'Hi Mom, this is Mark Bingham'.

    How do you know that cell phone don't work at 30k feet? Are you sure about that? Do we know that the planes were flying at that altitude after they were hijacked? What's your source for that info? And while it might sound silly for Mark to say his last name, do you really mean to suggest that something silly proves a fraud? Actually it demonstrates nothing. Odd, yes. But not evidence.

    A few thoughts on the Pentagon; how does such a large plane, traveling at such high speed hit the bottom floor of the building and not destroy the lawn in front of it? We can all see those huge rolls of cable still sitting upright in what is supposed to be the path of the plane. What punched a circular hole though the C ring brick wall? Not the nose of the plane, that's for sure. Questions that make people think it's at least possible something else hit the building.

    Once again, it may be possible, but that doesn't mean we have any evidence that suggests it. I don't care whether random people think its possible. What is that supposed to be an argument for? Based on the black box data, the plane came in at an angle. If it hit the Pentagon at exactly the ground level, it would not have damaged the lawn. It might have even missed those cable spools. Now that doesn't correspond with the light posts being knocked down, but what in the world does that demonstrate? Something being fishy doesn't signify at all what actually happened.

    I remember reading a quote from someone who supposedly was on the sidewalk beneath the towers at the moment of impact of one of the planes, he said, 'a plane hit the building but it fired a missile into the building just before impact.' I remember thinking, wow people see all kinds of crazy stuff under stressful situations.

    Some guy thought he saw something? I can totally shoot that down. Why can't you? In the video, the "missile launch" and "flash" occur in the last couple of frames before impact. Try watching the video at full speed and tell me how someone could have seen a missile launch from 1000 feet away in the fraction of a second it took for the plane to impact and then disappear into the building.

    As you yourself say, people see crazy stuff. Witnesses of traumatic events see lot of different things including Jesus. The flash, pod, and missile theory have been adequately explained by most of the well respected people in this movement who concern themselves with dissecting misinformation. If their arguments aren't compelling to you, I would guess that you are more interested in the fascination than the facts. And if you haven't read their arguments, I'd recommend that you not express any "opinions" about this subject at all until you've read a lot more.

    Just being straight with you. This isn't a casual thing for the people who post to this forum. I'm sure you care a great deal about this issue and no one here is trying to belittle your concern or activism. But I would like you to consider the possibility that there is something that you are missing. Its a matter of strategy, and a matter of understanding the scientific distinction between hypothesis and theory.

    Generally speaking this movement is best advanced by the promotion of well established facts. We also include some of our most factually supported theories. Hypotheses do have a place in all of this. People who do research are free to consider any option. But much of what they consider would never be promoted.

    We have found that many in the movement are fond of promoting something because they feel like they understand it. But that's not a very high bar to set. Just because my uncle Larry thinks the ejection of gas from the collapsing building looks like a squib firing, doesn't make it a squib.

    Anyway, I wish you luck in learning more about the movement and all its facts and pitfalls.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. Kim
    Member

    It's very informative and useful reading this thread (thanks), as even now I find some of this stuff confusing (aside from the obviously outlandish theories). Personally, in anything I do, I focus on the fact the US Government hasn't addressed the questions, or faced the evidence (and it's the victims themselves that are pushing hardest on this). It's hardly up to us to prove them "Wrong," when they haven't even proved themselves "Right." It's not us that should be on the backfoot, it's them. They're a joke. My own local Federal member (who knows me well, he generally heads in the other direction), and our PM Kevin Rudd have completely ignored my correspondence, where I've aimed to stay on track with this approach (hope I succeeded, maybe that's why they're ignoring me):

    http://www.kimspages.org/newinquirynow.htm

    . . . and that's despite me running that full page in my local paper, where I also advertised that link. They also know (from their previous experience of me), that I don't shut up or go away - and that page of reminders to Kevin Rudd is just going to grow longer and longer (reminds me, there's another one I need to add now), until my NEXT full page newspaper ad, when it will look even worse for them. It's interesting though, they'll have to respond sooner or later.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. truthmover
    Administrator

    Kim,

    You raise what I think is a common debate, but also I think a false dichotomy in some ways. This is mostly based on my experience in the movement. I know that you see both sides, but I wanted to briefly comment on the issue.

    Consider the content of the majority of books written on the subject. Consider how many people got into this movement because they learned about facts that contradict the official story. There certainly are many for whom "Omissions and Distortions" is most convincing. But in my experience, when those people try to make the argument that we all should stick to promoting the idea that we don't have answers, they are met with a great deal of frustration.

    Personally, I have found that this diversity of approaches has helped and not hurt the movement. We have movies like "Press for Truth" that appeal to a certain demographic most interested in obtaining official answers. And we have "Loose Change" that appeals to people interested in the public inquiry that has been taking place.

    To be honest, I see problems with both approaches. The "Press for Truth" approach denies some of the information we do have that directly contradicts the official story, while the "Loose Change" approach plays a bit loose with speculation. And yet without both of these approaches I'm quite certain our numbers would be smaller.

    On the street I have found both of these to be really useful. When someone engages us in conversation we are very often able to determine which approach would be most convincing to them and make a recommendation. Although I would say that breaking down the Commission Report has been the easiest and often the most convincing topic to present.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. JohnA
    Member

    most video shoots at approximately 30 frames per second. the flash event - at most - took place in a fraction of a second.

    the idea that someone could see - from the gound - a missile launch preceeding the flash is highly improbable. the launch would have had to have taken place almost simultaneously with the plane's impact (to have not been visible in any of the previous frames). do you see a missile launch in any of the previous frames?

    unless the guy who saw the missile launch is named Clark Kent - i would have some severe doubts about this story.

    plus - why fire a missile? why not just use a plane packed with plastic explosives?

    but something else bothers me about this.

    all of this is pretty obvious. nearly anyone with any sense of deductive reasoning can easily punch holes in all these theories.

    so we are faced with a dillema in that - sure - we want to respect everyone's right to an opinion - but - we are also extremely wary of those who seem to intentionally forward weak research as a means towards an end. disruption.

    albert - are you telling us that none of these alternative explainations ever occured to you?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. Kim
    Member

    "To be honest, I see problems with both approaches. The "Press for Truth" approach denies some of the information we do have that directly contradicts the official story, while the "Loose Change" approach plays a bit loose with speculation. And yet without both of these approaches I'm quite certain our numbers would be smaller."

    I don't disagree with you (the points you make are very valid), and I wasn't trying to pit one approach against the other (though I can see how it looked like that). It's just that in putting my local politicians very firmly "On the spot," I find the "9/11 Press for Truth" approach more useful. It's very hard for them to squirm away from it. And that's also why I used the "9/11 Press for Truth" approach in my newspaper ad:

    http://www.kimspages.org/jimboombatimesad.htm

    Further, I felt a bit worried (to say the least), I'd have problems placing that with my local newspaper, but because (I think), I was using stuff firmly linked to the 9/11 families (and undeniable facts), I didn't run into the faintest opposition. It's also where I personally feel on firmer ground, as I'm no expert (though I'm getting much better), vis a vis the second approach. And certainly, if I was organising a local film day on these issues, I'd use both "9/11 Press for Truth" and "Loose Change - The Final Cut," no question about that.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. Kim
    Member

    PS - I also look of the psychology of this too. Let's face it, most people in real positions of power (Australia's PM included), KNOW the official story is complete BS - so I guess it's very disconcerting when you're standing completely outside the truth (or in other words on quicksand), and you're confronted with legitimate and in the end, unavoidable demands for answers. There's no way out.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  8. truthmod
    Administrator

    The controlling powers have done done an expert job at wiggling out of addressing the truth for time immemorial. It seems to be the substance of what they do. But no matter, we'll keep hitting them (and more importantly, our fellow citizens) with the truth.

    9/11 PFT is a great tool. As you note, it is basically unassailable. BTW, have the "Screw Loose Change" or Mark Roberts people ever done a "debunking" of 9/11 PFT?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  9. Kim
    Member

    "The controlling powers have done done an expert job at wiggling out of addressing the truth for time immemorial. It seems to be the substance of what they do. But no matter, we'll keep hitting them (and more importantly, our fellow citizens) with the truth."

    Absolutely, and that's probably tenable while you're still supplying the bread and circuses - but what happens when the bread and circuses stop:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/22/oil...

    And I was talking to Bruce Robinson (convenor of ASPO Australia), about that report fairly recently (he's a lovely guy, and I've met him in person too). He knows the authors of that report (don't quote me on this, but I think they stayed with him once), and he thinks they're credible.

    Anyway, we're in for some very interesting times, times when the habit of lies clashes head on with liar's ability to supply the basics . . .

    Posted 16 years ago #
  10. JohnA
    Member

    The "Press for Truth" approach denies some of the information we do have that directly contradicts the official story, while the "Loose Change" approach plays a bit loose with speculation. And yet without both of these approaches I'm quite certain our numbers would be smaller."

    I disagree with this statement. Press for the Truth does not deny information that directly contradicts the official story. You would need to qualify this statement with some facts. and the accusatory nature of your statement is revealing. what superior knowledge do you possess that PFTT does not?

    additionally, i do not agree that our numbers would be smaller without 'both approaches - and the 'playing a bit loose with speculation.'

    on the contrary. if it were not for the irresponsible tin-foil-hat theories and weak science our numbers would be MUCH BIGGER. many people have been scared off by the disinformation and weak logic. this is why the media always puts that front and center in any discussion. that's why we are called conspiracy theorists. that's why the history channel quoted DRG on voice morphing. that's why people call us nuts.

    no one would EVER criticize a call for accountability on the government's lies and cover-ups. how could they?

    but no - instead we hear 'our numbers' repeating urban legends and clear disinformation to an audience that is exhausted by the collective stupidity of those who espouse them. they turn away.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  11. truthmover
    Administrator

    You would need to qualify this statement with some facts. and the accusatory nature of your statement is revealing. what superior knowledge do you possess that PFTT does not?

    John, that statement is disingenuous, and your post is a bit condescending. Revealing? What is this subtext you allude to? And since when do we compare one another's knowledge to the data presented in a movie? From everything I've written in the past you should know full well how critical I am of promoting speculation. And being the most noisy and uncompromising purveyor of principle before association, along with the other TruthMovers here, I wasn't making the argument that we should trade quality for popularity. And your statement about never criticizing something is just not how we handle ourselves here. Yes, criticize everything.

    I just re-read my post, and your comments relate to one paragraph and appear to ignore the previous ones in which I make statements indicating that a great deal of work and development in this movement has come from people addressing specifics. While we agree that this approach has been fraught with pitfalls, bad science, and disinformation, it is undeniable that the movement would not have grown as it did if the only thing promoted was the idea that we had no answers and should only expect our questions to be answered through official channels.

    Michael Ruppert addressed none of the physical evidence in "The Truth and Lies of 9/11" recorded two months after the event. His approach was totally based on documentary evidence. He wasn't really expecting and didn't wait for our government to hold a new investigation. He investigated. And what he found laid the groundwork for many other people. That video was my starting point in all this. It set the bar pretty high for me.

    I also agree with Kim that when addressing a more professional, academic, or influential audience, that our movement is best served by sticking to the inadequacy of the original investigation, and leaving the conspiracy theories out, as you often say. But this approach is not as compelling to all, and there ARE other approaches that appeal to different audiences that are factually responsible.

    Maybe Loose Change hit a nerve. Once again, I do have my problems with it. So then substitute the Michael Ruppert video and my point is more clearly made.

    I see another sticking point here. The word "denies" was not a good choice. So then here we have my correction.

    The "Press for Truth" approach does not include some of the information we do have that directly contradicts the official story, such as that provided by "The Truth and Lies of 9/11."

    I don't mind clarifying my intentions as I wouldn't want the random reader to mistake my position on anything, but if you are looking out for me you could be nicer about it. And if you simply disagree, you could take into account everything else you know about me.

    Posted 16 years ago #

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