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New David Ray Griffin book: 9/11 Contradictions... (36 posts)

  1. truthmod
    Administrator

    Sounds good to me. Sorry if I can't get to excited by another book.

    9/11 CONTRADICTIONS: An Open Letter to Congress and the Press

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&...

    http://www.amazon.com/11-CONTRADICTIONS-Letter-Con...

    9/11 CONTRADICTIONS by David Ray Griffin is the fifth of his books to examine the official account of the events of September 11, 2001. This brilliant and highly readable book takes a new yet simple approach to the truth about 9/11. It focuses entirely on contradictory statements made by members of the Bush administration, government departments and agencies, and official bodies such as the 9/11 Commission. All the statements that Griffin examines are official claims in direct conflict with other official claims. How could this be? Why would the government keep changing "the official story"? The public, of course, is expected to take all the statements as incontrovertibly true, yet they directly conflict with one another.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. mark
    Member

    Maybe for this book he can mention the significance of the 9/11 war games and admit that the plane really did hit the Pentagon.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. truthmover
    Administrator

    Mark,

    I'm not holding my breath. Somehow I get the sense you aren't either. According to a review of the book, I'd say it didn't happen.

    Until now, the persistent and disturbing questions about the day that changed the world have confused and alienated journalists and politicians, because:

    1. The technical issues regarding the collapse of the towers, the failure of the military to intercept the flights, and the relatively minor damage to the Pentagon have been considered too complex for analysis in the media.

    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&...

    Minor damage to the Pentagon? I hope that's the reviewer talking and not Griffin. If he's still pushing this crap I just can't say he's being honest. I don't care how old and lovable he appears. Way too many people have been after him about that concern for him to still be pushing that junk. The damage to the Pentagon is one of the few things about 9/11 that you can determine by looking at pictures. Assuming you don't decide to only look a certain ones and neglect to look at others.

    I'm sure this book will reach a certain audience and do some good. But what's the hangup with Griffin on the Pentagon?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. mark
    Member

    If he is sincere, then he is a better writer of prose than an investigative journalist. Of course, the study of theology is not one that requires the ability to examine physical evidence.

    I heard him speak about a year ago, and he spoke for nearly three hours (including the question time) and did not mention O-I-L once (as in, there is no need to look at oil politics to understand why 9/11 was allowed and assisted). He also urged the audience to ignore the war games in favor of the claim that the phone calls from the doomed planes were somehow faked in real time by the military, which makes the "no plane" claim seem intelligent in comparison. It seems to be a meme calculated to piss off the family members and ensure that they don't work in alliance with the truth movements, although most of those repeating this absurdity are probably sincere in their error.

    I doubt that a rehashing of his same book on these issues will reach anyone that he has not yet reached, but it might provide more fodder for the debunkers.

    It's hard for people marketing themselves as "the truth" to admit making a mistake. But it's unlikely that anyone looking at deep politics (not only 9/11) has been perfect in their reporting and analysis - it's probably an impossibility. It is important to be willing to admit errors and learn from them, and admit that some (many?) aspects of these issues might be in a "maybe" category.


    http://www.namebase.org/news04.html Sidebar from NameBase NewsLine, No. 4, January-March 1994:

    The Man Who Wasn't There by Daniel Brandt

    About the time that my two colleagues plotted a trajectory toward the Dallas symposium, I was relieved that PIR's telephone had stopped ringing, and there was some light at the other end of the TV specials. Yet another media feeding frenzy during yet another assassination anniversary. "I hope I'm not around for the 50th," I told researcher Scott Malone when he called a few weeks earlier to check on something or other that I've since happily forgotten.

    After Peter Dale Scott's exhausting "Deep Politics and the Death of JFK," I needed a rest before starting on the other worthwhile 1993 JFK book, Gaeton Fonzi's "The Last Investigation." By now I've only a vague idea of the number of JFK books in NameBase, but the notion that it's enough already is increasingly distinct. Fortunately Fonzi's book was easy reading, and early on a zinger perked me up. Fonzi describes a visit to Vince Salandria in 1975, the earliest assassination researcher who at one time was a mentor to many starting out in the field:

    "I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny.... We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time microanalyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do.... They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down." (p. 29)

    The name Vince Salandria was not familiar to me; I knew only that he had assisted in the Garrison investigation. Fonzie mentions that Salandria has never written a book, never capitalized on his research, and by 1975 had faded into the background. I found an address for Salandria and wrote a letter explaining that I thought his perspective deserved a wider audience. He graciously sent 60 photocopied pages of articles he had written from 1964-1977, and mentioned in his cover letter that "I still feel that shifting the analysis from a micro to a macro approach is essential to freeing the bona fide critics from a quagmire."

    Half of the copies were of articles he wrote from 1964-1966, by way of showing, as he described in his letter, that "I was perhaps the earliest person to attack the Warren Report microanalytically." This isn't a boast, it's a confession. By December 1971 he described himself as "among the earliest and GUILTIEST of the researchers in my protracted analyses of the shots, trajectories and wounds of the assassination.... While the researchers have involved themselves in consuming preoccupation with the microanalytic searching for facts of how the assassination was accomplished, there has been almost no systematic thinking on why President Kennedy was killed."

    In this article and another written in 1977, Salandria looks at the assassination with a fresh set of assumptions. He borrows from his friend Professor Thomas Katen, who characterized the Warren Report as a "transparent conspiracy" rather than a cover-up. The deeper you look into the evidence, the clearer it becomes. The clues are buried, diffused, and time-released so that those who look hardest become the most fragmented and demoralized. And savvy political leaders, who might normally feel that something can be done, are the very ones who get the message most clearly: "The cryptocracy is in control, so go along if you expect to get along." Then there are those who need to deny, or refuse to see, or just enjoy grotesque minutiae -- for them, bread and circuses and murder mysteries are sufficiently harmless.

    After talking with Salandria in 1975, Fonzi flew back to Miami. "I didn't quite grasp exactly what he was talking about, but I had the uneasy feeling he was advancing some awesomely frightening theories. Then it crossed my mind that, perhaps this time for sure, Salandria was crazy." By 1993, of course, Fonzi is much more concerned that his friend ISN'T crazy.

    I instinctively refused when my colleagues urged me to attend the 30th anniversary symposium with them. But it wasn't until I heard from the Warren Commission's first micro-critic, the man who stopped being there sometime around the 8th anniversary, that I began to understand why.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. mark
    Member

    Ruppert vs. Griffin - two approaches to the evidence


    http://www.wirenh.com/Features/Cover_Stories/syste...

    System Breakdown by Larry Clow The Wire Wednesday, March 29, 2006

    .... Ruppert said he's trying to distance himself from the 9/11 movement. The one subject he doesn’t tackle is physical evidence--the why and how of the Towers’ collapse, the strangeness surrounding the destruction at the Pentagon and the debris left behind by Flight 93 in Pennsylvania. This is the one area where the 9/11 movement is focusing most of its energies now, he says, and physical evidence arguments are "absolute minefields when you get into the legal arena," with discussions devolving into a competition between whichever side can provide the most experts.

    The greater danger, according to Ruppert, is that the 9/11 movement has been "heavily, heavily infiltrated … by government disinformation operatives" who have put proverbial "poison pills" into its debates.

    Sounds paranoid, right? Not really. In the 1960s and 1970s, federal programs like COINTELPRO used undercover operatives to infiltrate the anti-war movement and discredit it, and the practice apparently continues today. Last month, the American Civil Liberties Union released data confirming that the government has been spying on anti-war groups since the conflict in Iraq began in 2003.

    [David Ray] Griffin, on the other hand, is skeptical of talk about disinformation and infiltrators.

    "I really haven’t had any strong suspicions about anybody," he said. "Even if there is some truth to it, I don’t think it’s a very important concern."

    Some of the more outlandish theories--like French writer Thierry Meyssan’s claim that a cruise missile, not an airplane, hit the Pentagon--are only diluting the waters, Ruppert said. There are other theories, too: that there were no planes at all, only holographic projections of planes (used in conjunction with explosives planted by some shadowy group); or that one of the planes that hit the WTC had some sort of anomalous "pod" attached to it that caused extra damage. But this is all "bullshit," Ruppert said, and is either intentional disinformation or sheer stupidity.

    The research conducted by the movement itself is getting lazy, as well, according to Ruppert. Most of the Web sites reference previous research done by Ruppert and others, or they simply reference themselves, which hardly makes for a compelling case.

    "My job is to keep my case pure, so if I've fallen out of the mainstream with 9/11, so be it. But if 9/11 ever gets opened in a meaningful way, my book is where (people) will have to come to," Ruppert said.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. chrisc
    Member

    the claim that the phone calls from the doomed planes were somehow faked in real time by the military

    I watched the video of him at the EU parliament and he mostly went on about the phone calls there as well... sigh

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. cosmos
    Member

    I think DRG needs an intervention. I saw him speak live for the first time in San Diego at the end of February. The man spent the entire first 30 minutes of his talk blabbing on and on about cell phone fakery. I was the not the only person who left the auditorium in a fuming rage.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  8. truthmod
    Administrator

    Seeing such a major leader of the 9/11 TM be so irresponsible is very demoralizing. Now I'm actually imagining DRG trying to convince the Loose Change guys to put in more crappy evidence to Final Cut.

    Whether or not DRG is doing this intentionally, I think it's good to acknowledge that we've been set up from many different angles and on many different time scales. As genuine and responsible activists, we need to forge ahead and never depend on supposed leaders to carry the weight for us. With DRG, I believe there's a phenomenon of other possible leaders and writers feeling "let off the hook" because the movement already has a prolific expert who fills so many roles.

    Other untrustworthy local leaders often fulfill the same role, just on a local scale whereas DRG is national and even International.

    Beware your leaders.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  9. NicholasLevis
    Member

    He's become exhibit A in why looking for classic authority figures to justify a cause is a minefield.

    Two concepts that he never addresses are oil and wargames. On the latter I had an exchange with him years ago. He just doesn't seem to get it, or want to get it. (Even though it's inherent in his bizarre real-time voice-morphing idea.)

    Posted 16 years ago #
  10. truthmover
    Administrator

    I think DRG needs an intervention. I saw him speak live for the first time in San Diego at the end of February. The man spent the entire first 30 minutes of his talk blabbing on and on about cell phone fakery. I was the not the only person who left the auditorium in a fuming rage.

    Wow! I hadn't realized that anyone prominent was still pushing the "cell phone fakery" angle. Griffin must have heard the many concerns we are expressing here from a great many people. And yet from what I understand, as Nick indicated, he has been unresponsive to suggestions. He listens to someone. We just don't know who it is.

    I'm really disappointed to hear this latest news. I had up to this point considered Griffin to be well meaning and yet misguided. But hearing that people would be so frustrated by his lecture that they would leave the event really spells the end of his relevance to me.

    And further, that he would write a book that might well contribute to the movement, maintaining his prominence, while also lecturing on weak information, makes me feel a bit like he's doing a number on us. I'm not able to come to the point that I think he's intentionally trying to deceive, but my concerns about his clarity of thought and ability to be manipulated are stronger than ever.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  11. NicholasLevis
    Member

    I think it makes sense without need of dark explanations when you understand that he is, in the final analysis, an amateur in a grandfatherly, scholarly, authoritative guise. From the exterior, a great spokesperson, someone who inspires natural trust. Someone with a wise sense of big picture, but not necessarily for sorting out details. Of course, we are all amateurs. But I do believe that regardless of degrees possessed, one can go about the scholarship professionally as a committed skeptic with high standards for falsification or confirmation of theses, and allowing an in-between area that one leaves as open questions given how much we don't know. I don't think he's applying such standards anymore, if he ever did. He sticks to the original "living hijackers" approach and the voice-morphing idea, both of which indicate naivete, possibly because they are popular big-tent items (and never mind plausibility).

    At the same time he's attacked by the obvious disinfo types because of his utopian ideas about world federalism.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  12. chrisc
    Member

    The EU talk he gave on no-phones can be watched via the 911blogger article: http://www.911blogger.com/node/14394

    Also remember he gave a rather dire performance in a radio debate with George Monbiot: http://www.911blogger.com/node/12743 my comments on this debate are here: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9716#...

    See also this thread about his defense of Judy Wood: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2579

    Posted 16 years ago #
  13. JohnA
    Member

    I didn't know any of this either until i had an extended phone conversation with Cosmos where he described walking out on a DRG event, along with Luke Rudowski, fuming over the dominance of cell-phone fakery in his presentation. (the 1st half hour i think he said)

    i too have been annoyed at DRG's references to cell-phone fakery in the past - but i had always assumed it was just one of those minor talking points DRG was 'off' on. I had no idea that he was LEADING with this nonsense.

    of all the issues to LEAD with - he chooses cell-phone fakery?

    so many of DRG's treatments on 9/11 have been good, solid and well-documented works of journalism. I expecially approve of his current approach of listing out direct contradictions of the administration. These are fact-driven approaches that speak for themselves.

    It is mysterious and inexplicable how and why DRG would be so tone deaf on this issue.

    i could theorize - but it would sound crazy. did someone get to this guy and make him an offer he could not refuse? is he some elaborate 'plant' in the movement? WHY would they plant someone who so thoroughly documents their crimes? Fetzer would be a better choice for 'plant.'

    Old age mixed with stubborness?

    i would certainly hate to throw out the DRG baby with the cell-phone fakery bathwater - but - this is essentially a trust issue. can this man be trusted to speak for 9/11 Truth?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  14. Arabesque
    Member

    i would certainly hate to throw out the DRG baby with the cell-phone fakery bathwater - but - this is essentially a trust issue. can this man be trusted to speak for 9/11 Truth?

    No one single person can be or should be trusted when it comes to 9/11 truth. We have to be a fact based movement--not an authority/expert based one. The fact remains that almost no one is immune to criticism.

    As long as this criticism is framed in a constructive way, we are on the right track. As long as there is a response to criticism, we can move forward in a positive way.

    The reality is that there is no single true exponent for 9/11 truth.

    I'm not going to defend Phone-call fakery, as it is simply an unprovable, and ultimately an implausible theory. We don't need theories when we have facts. Moreover, Griffin has said repeatedly we don't have to prove what happened--we just have to show that the official story is wrong. So why is he not following his own advice here? I don't think speculation about being a planted agent or anything ultimately helps anyone. Anyone can speculate about who is an agent, but we can only discuss what is good and bad information with certainty and critique.

    I think the criticisms here are accurate, and it would be nice to see a response from Griffin instead of silence.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  15. truthmod
    Administrator

    No one single person can be or should be trusted when it comes to 9/11 truth. We have to be a fact based movement--not an authority/expert based one. The fact remains that almost no one is immune to criticism.

    Yes!

    Guideline 6 from the 2008 Declaration

    Do not allow the proliferation of irresponsible information or damaging behavior simply because the individuals or groups in question maintain a certain reputation or notoriety within the movement. The fact that someone may “have done good work in the past” is never a valid excuse to tolerate damaging participation in the present. The movement must be about truth and justice rather than character and ego.

    http://www.truthmove.org/content/2008-declaration/

    Posted 16 years ago #
  16. christs4sale
    Administrator

    Another prominent researcher who is an advocate of fake cell phone calls is Michel Chossudovsky.

    An article from 2004: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html

    Guns and Butter program of 2006: http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?page=9

    Posted 16 years ago #
  17. JohnA
    Member

    Nicholas Levis would be able to talk about Guns and Butter. I know he has expressed frustration over their sudden departure from reason.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  18. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Huh?

    I don't have an inside relationship to Guns and Butter. I like a lot of the shows and it's terrible to see them repeating Von Kleist productions and the like.

    I think Chossudovsky was influenced by the Dewdney "Project Achilles" experiment (which discovered that cell phone calls may be impossible from the air space over Ontario - does anyone spot the problem here?). Nevertheless, I prefer his work to Griffin's. He came up with a lot of important and original analysis on his own early, along with allowing more than a touch but less than a flood of tinfoil on his mostly great site. His books are mostly solid and rigorous. Chapter 28 of "America's War on Terror" does go into the cell phone question, without ruling out connections altogether.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  19. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks mark for posting these great insights. Not many in the 9/11 TM like to acknowledge this stuff. We must move from micro to macro, I've been saying this for years. Limiting our focus to 9/11 itself (and the miniscule details therein), is very damaging to our understanding of our situation and our possibilities for making positive change. It's about priorities and effectiveness; the ability to be humble and forge ahead into new territory, admit mistakes and develop a clearer picture and plan.

    The evidence of many of these issues--9/11, assassinations, the environmental situation--is overwhelmingly documented, yet many of us seem to be stuck in the "wrapping your head around it" phase or the "trying to map every detail" phase or the "trying to convince ourselves and each other" phase. What we need is broad and continually evolving understanding of our predicament which will inform and naturally lead to effective action.

    "I still feel that shifting the analysis from a micro to a macro approach is essential to freeing the bona fide critics from a quagmire."

    "I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way?


    It's hard for people marketing themselves as "the truth" to admit making a mistake. But it's unlikely that anyone looking at deep politics (not only 9/11) has been perfect in their reporting and analysis - it's probably an impossibility. It is important to be willing to admit errors and learn from them, and admit that some (many?) aspects of these issues might be in a "maybe" category.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  20. albert
    Member

    In response to DRG's not mentioning war games - he covers the war games that were taking place that morning in 'Debunking 911 Debunking'. As far as the possibility of a plane not hitting the pentagon he mentions there was no obvious evidence usually associated with plane crashes (i/e seat's, luggage, Rolls Royce engines etc) and that hole that was visible, prior to collapsed of the roof, looked way too small. Granted, this was not like other plane crashes, but we should still have some images of this plane coming in - the pentagon is encircled with video cameras and yet the government has not released a single frame showing a plane. There is a traffic camera that has a perfect view of that side of the building, and yet not one frame. (A plane they knew was approaching, as per Norman Mineta's testimony before the 911 commission) Even local businesses had their security camera footage confiscated within hours of the attacks. This is what leads to this kind of speculation. Can you blame for thinking this might a possibility?

    Regarding the voice-morphing, it seems unlikely, yes, but the entire event has that characteristic. Two possible facts, one that cell phones would not work at 30k feet in 2001, and the other was the nature of the calls themselves especially the one from Mark Bingham in which he says to him mother, 'Hi Mom, this is Mark Bingham'. Now that might not be much to base all this on but it's certainly relevant. Have any of you ever called your mother and said hello in such an impersonal way? I know I haven't. I don;t even need to say my first name, my mother knows my voice, Yet this is what his mother states that he said.. also repeating a couple of times, 'you believe me don't you' DRG does not say that any of these things are facts but lists anomalies and contradictions/

    A few thoughts on the Pentagon; how does such a large plane, traveling at such high speed hit the bottom floor of the building and not destroy the lawn in front of it? We can all see those huge rolls of cable still sitting upright in what is supposed to be the path of the plane. What punched a circular hole though the C ring brick wall? Not the nose of the plane, that's for sure. Questions that make people think it's at least possible something else hit the building.

    Regarding the NYC attacks, things like the 'flash frame' might seem like minor anomalies but taken with testimony of people who were present they could bear a lot more weight. Long before the footage of the flash frame was even discovered and shown to the world, I remember reading a quote from someone who supposedly was on the sidewalk beneath the towers at the moment of impact of one of the planes, he said, 'a plane hit the building but it fired a missile into the building just before impact.' I remember thinking, wow people see all kinds of crazy stuff under stressful situations. Two years later when I watched Von Kleist's video, and saw the flash frames I remembered this guy's words.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  21. chrisc
    Member

    albert, are you for real?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  22. truthmod
    Administrator

    albert, please read the 2008 Declaration and the Disinformation page and the links on both. If you want to have a productive conversation about debunked theories after that, you're welcome to, otherwise this is not the right forum for you.

    http://www.truthmove.org/content/disinformation

    http://www.truthmove.org/content/2008-declaration

    Posted 16 years ago #
  23. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Poor Mark Bingham. Doomed, he stutters some words to his mom who carries a different last name, Alice Hoglan (and I do know people who introduce themselves with full names to their mothers, yes!). She repeats a few words accurately or otherwise, which papers report accurately or otherwise... and then, voila, you're magically privy to what's really inside his ("voice-morphed") head, and hers. She later says he had the habit of saying his full name to her, but never mind - why believe her? After all, you know you would say, "Hi Mom!" so what's wrong with this guy?

    If you give up speculative entities, especially the kind that make you look like an insensitive lout ragging on the dead, is there no case left for 9/11 skepticism?

    It's a slam-dunk, I tell you, like the non-existent reports of "Atta's pristine passport" (and never mind that the Ground Zero black boxes were found and disappeared), and the myth of the Living Walid Alshehri (and never mind that key "hijackers" appear to be state agents and were under surveillance at all times), and damn it, "that hole in Shanksville looks too small to me!" (and never mind the discrepancy between seismic report and official time of crash, and wreckage spread out over miles).

    Always go with the lesser evidence.

    Poor Griffin. The government has not released photos showing Pentagon plane wreckage - except where it has - therefore it must not exist.

    Some people seem not to understand the concept of overkill.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  24. truthmod
    Administrator

    Please note that "albert" was one of the guys representing Les' 9/11 Ballot Initiative yesterday at Union Sq. I gave him a flyer and christs4sale had a pretty long conversation with him.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  25. JohnA
    Member

    ok - well - if Mark Bingham's use of a last name is indeed a smoking gun.. why does this point at voice morphing technology?

    why does it not point at android technology?

    think about it. the technology exists (simply because i say so). Bingham was replaced by a lifelike android just for the purposes of making these calls.

    androids are KNOWN To be VERY formal on the phone.

    now - think about voice morphing theories. WHO would have SCRIPTED a fake call that says "HI - I am Mark Bingham?"

    seems like veeeeery poor planning in the voice morphing department of the CIA. seems like if you wanted to fake a call to someone's mother you would write a script that was less suspicious.

    this - again - all points at androids.

    but - i have a sneaking suspicion Les has this covered - and it will be front and center in the ballot initiative.

    Posted 16 years ago #

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