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Global Warming is Real and it's a Big Deal (so are other environmental issues) (41 posts)

  1. truthmover
    Administrator

    That wasn't too swift on my part, thinking that your post was from another source. And I was not trying to imply that you were a 'correspondent' of any kind. Sorry for the confusion. Much of the contents of your post was off topic on this forum, and so the post was deleted. Dem is used to us deleting posts of his on this subject. We're glad he keeps posting other things.

    If you posted something about Bigfoot it would get deleted. If you posted something about UFO's it would get deleted. If you posted something advancing 'no planes' research it would get deleted. And what are the parameters? Generally, the contents of our website.

    I did not find your list of points very compelling. Unrelated suppositions with no sources. Logical critique is welcome here. We know what that looks like.

    Once again, sorry for the misunderstanding. I was being short with you. Not very logically critical on my part. We do our best to sideline our personal feelings in moderating this forum.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  2. JohnA
    Member

    Why would anyone want to debunk efforts to protect the environment?

    The USA pumps 6 billions tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. 6 billion tons. and that's just the USA alone. China, India, Russia, Europe, etc etc also pollute. billions of tons - EVERY YEAR.

    i think it is intellectually dishonest to claim that mankind is not able to affect the environment. in fact - its laughable. the atmosphere is not an infinite thing. it is like a lake. keep dumping crap into the lake and the biosystem changes. period.

    it is dishonest to claim that 'suddenly' global warming has emerged as an issue - and that the media 'propaganda' is to blame. this is an INSULT to anyone with an ounce of integrity.

    i remember the 'greenhouse effect' being talked about 20 years ago. the warning signs were already present - and gotten steadily worse. i remember people talking about the hole in the ozone layer 20 years ago. i remember people talking about the sharp increases in skin cancer.

    this is not a SUDDEN interest. it is a CRISIS.

    we now know from studies of ice-plugs in the arctic that climate changes - as a result of CO2 fluctuations - can create SUDDEN and catastrophic changes in the environment. sudden ice ages in the span of a decade. do you have data to dispute this?

    why are people ignoring this data? why do people question the 'sudden interest' in protecting our environment when we KNOW these facts?

    arctic climatologists and meteorologists and microbiologists and oceanographers and marine biologists and avian experts and migratory patterns and geologists and anthropologists and mass extinctions and the study of coral reefs and disappearing ice sheets and retreating glaciers and the rise of diseases and tropical weather patterns in northern areas and mega wildfires and catastrophic droughts and historically powerful hurricanes and catastrophic flooding and rollercoaster weather patterns with more extreme weather surfacing on both sides of the spectrum…..

    and all of these studies cross-reference each other - support each other - and confirm the truth. Scientists from many many different scientific disciplines - with peer-review - all documenting the same phenomenon all over the world.

    yet – some people here are ARROGANT enough to post an article from some small percent of dissenting scientists who claim nonsense like ‘sun spots’ are to blame? where's the worldwide consensus on THAT?

    It is SO out of proportion to the reality at hand that it ceases to be funny – and becomes borderline criminal. It is the equivalent of ignoring the inadequate levies in New Orleans – for business reasons – resulting in thousands of deaths when they finally failed. It is irresponsible TO THE EXTREME!

    So I guess global warming is the ONE subject we CAN trust big business and FoxNews on? Sean Hannity got this one right?

    Oh – let me get this straight – Al Gore is part of the Knights Templar Bilderberg Rockefeller NWO North American Union Skull and Bones conspiracy to create false hysteria about scientific data that exists and anyone can research for themselves?

    Someone here said it was suspicious that Gore made this film after his presidential loss. Why? The man has ALWAYS championed this cause. He wrote Earth in the Balance in 2000. He collaborated on The Riverkeepers : Two Activists Fight to Reclaim Our Environment as a Basic Human Right in 1999.

    how arrorant do you have to be to deny the gross majority of scientific studies coming from all over the world - from a spectrum of different scientific disciplines - and call global warming a hoax?

    where do you get off?

    Posted 17 years ago #
  3. HocusLocus
    Member

    Effect of particulates and other things, triggers for cloud formation -- has been too sparse a branch of science. This to include natural sun cycles, pan evaporation rate, polution (down to the substance and region level), secondary effects on particulate mechanisms when Global Warming (which of itself I do not disagree, though the term has been battered) is factored in: i.e., are there particulate-oriented 'runaway effects' (such as the one for methane release)? Even contrails, et cetera.

    While pure-chemistry CO2 science has gotten a really fat helping. Niether do I imply concern is new nor do I imply that Gore is a science charlatan racketeer or neocoon (being a civilian, why should he not believe the IPCC?) nor divine revalation.

    I never want to call anything a hoax. I think the term 'hoax' is so tied ambiguous and emotion-laden (as Arabesque succinctly notes for LIHOP/MIHOP) that it should be avoided.

    I do suggest however that we each take a close look at the way GW is being 'covered' and presented with the same dilligent scepticism that we are apply to 9/11. And just as energy issues might tie in with 9/11 issues (Afghanistan, Iraq), there might also be an intersection set between issues of energy, 9/11 and climate (coal burners like China, the dollar, oil and organized distractions for the left). The fire is real, but are we being stampeded out of the theater by a cigarette lighter. I will leave it to y'all to privately speculate what the intersections could be.

    THANKS truthmover, understood; apologies for my attack of the haughties and run-on post. As to breakfornews, just a place I dug in for awhile so when quoting (mainly) myself elsewhere that's where it goes. I see brief or nonexistent sig quotes as the local custom finally. Thanks for listening.


    This space to let.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  4. JohnA
    Member

    Many of your responses seem be directed at comments I was aiming at DBLS - not you. he does indeed refer to global warming as a hoax - and calls it a 'sudden' interest (suggesting that it is engineered by the media)

    but - regarding your post - and your comment regarding 'organized distractions for the left' ... sometimes i think it is possible to overthink things. sometimes i think it is possible to become so cynical about the corporate media that we end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    i, for one, am not at all impressed with the media's coverage of global warming. i do not see it as an engineered distraction or exaggerated.

    on the contrary - i see the media coverage of global warming as inadequate. they treat it like black history month, or some other social issue for discussion.

    but they fail to tie the problem to those who are directly responsible. instead the media deflects responsibility by focusing on mostly symbolic gestures and corporate apologists who tell us - yet again - that ethenol is a solution, people should 'go green' and what amazing strives the oil industry is making. we are treated to sophistocated advertising campaigns that pump hi-definition lies into our living rooms, complete with beautiful photography of windmills on grassy hillsides while music swells and oh-so-sincere scientists gaze thoughtfully into test tubes held up to the camera. we are told that the problem is being worked on by the very same people who are digging our graves.

    and then we are told that head-on is applied directly to the forehead - applied directly to the forehead - applied directly to the forehead. and people believe it.

    the media is full of 'hurumpffs' and rightious indignation from Anderson Cooper- but no real accountability or real-world solutions or calls to political activism or 1-800 phone numbers or petitions or protests or resource centers are provided. that might piss off their sponsors.

    but - make no mistake about it. global warming is not an engineered propaganda campaign to distract us from the NWO. it is time to grow up. it is the REASON we are fighting these wars in the first place. the threat is real. the science is real. the media is covering its ass by reporting the problem. but they are also covering the ass of the very same criminals who are responsible for the problem.

    the media attempts to put this problem into the 'grassroots' bucket - encouraging people to 'go green'. ummmm...... we need government to regulate industry. no grassroots effort is going to stop Union Carbide or General Motors or any of the other heartless corporate conglomerates from shitting where we eat. and when the government itself is owned by these corporations (the very definition of fascism) - and the media acts as its PR department - you get slickly produced segments about global warming that tell us that hybrid cars and backyard compost heaps will make a dent in stopping humanity's monstrously deliberate march of consumption towards golgotha.

    i for one do not need to analyze and engage in endless debates with people who seek to 'open my mind' to how global warming may not be as bad as it seems afterall. i do not need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  5. truthmod
    Administrator

    I completely agree, John. I'm also pretty tired of dealing with this "hoax" or "we don't really know" attitude. I've written responses on past threads that can be seen here:

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/tags/global-warming

    on the contrary - i see the media coverage of global warming as inadequate. they treat it like black history month, or some other social issue for discussion.

    Damn right. Even if GW is getting a little play in the media, it certainly isn't getting addressed in any meaningful way where it matters: in reality, in policy. In fact all the recent coverage may serve to make people think it's actually being dealt with when it's not.

    And as I'm constantly trying to explain, there is no way to isolate GW from other environmental issues. Most of these people ("it's a hoax") also have an attitude that ALL environmental issues are alarmist or globalist hoaxes, etc.

    These attitudes are not welcome on this board. Also, people who may be good at sounding reasonable while espousing these ignorant and damaging views, will probably be moderated so as not to waste our time.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  6. >Why would anyone want to debunk efforts to protect the environment?

    Enough said!

    Posted 17 years ago #
  7. John A, that entire latest post was beautiful. Just beautiful.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  8. chrisc
    Member

    Nice one John.

    Three of the last Unwelcome Guests, http://unwelcomeguests.org/ were good on all this stuff:

    1. Unwelcome Guests: #380 - Stealing Gifts from the Future Capitalism and the Theft Economy with Joel Kovel, Lindsay Blomberry, Genevieve Vaughn (reading), Analyzing "the market" from the point of view of ecosocialism and the gift economy. http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=25066

    2. Unwelcome Guests: #379 - Money and Culture Getting to Roots of a Culture of Destruction with Paul Grignon, Hugo Blanco, Genevieve Vaugn (reading), An explanation of what money is and how it destroys the environment, a critique of neoliberalism from the indigenous eco-socialist perspective, and a feminist critique of the exchange economy. http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=24980

    3. Unwelcome Guests: #378 - Getting to Solutions Climate Change and Peak Oil with Bill McKibben, Gregory Greene, Alex Smith, Climate change and peak oil have a common solution, that brings back community as a primary organizing principle. http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=24913

    Also have people seen The Power of Community: How Cuba Survived Peak Oil -- it the most inspiring film I have seen on all this stuff, well worth buying, http://www.powerofcommunity.org/cm/ or getting via Bittorrent, http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3675678/How_Cuba_Survi...

    Posted 17 years ago #
  9. funhouse1970
    Blocked

    The "list of associations that are damaging and marginalizing to the movement" includes:

    "Anti-environmentalism (i.e. “global warming is a hoax” or “the environment is fine; humans aren’t causing significant damage”)"

    Anti-environmentalism is a misnomer. The argument is misrepresented -- should read "manmade global warming is a hoax."

    Posted 16 years ago #
  10. truthmod
    Administrator

    Wait, so global warming may be happening and it may be just as bad as the "doomsdayers" are saying, but it isn't manmade, so we shouldn't worry about it or try to do anything about it (or feel guilty about it)?

    Or it's not that bad actually, it's a natural cycle and it's not that threatening or something?

    You guys are all mixed up.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  11. funhouse1970
    Blocked

    There are many reasons to NOT pollute and to look for environmentally conscious alternatives to the petroleum foundation on which this system is built. I'm not saying that the corporate polluters should be given a pass. There are more harmful chemicals surrounding oil than CO2. CO2 and Manmade GW is a red herring. Fighting GMO foods, genetically altered pollution, as well as forcefully opposing mercury, nerve gas and neurotoxin dumping by the government and big corporations is what I call environmentalism.

    Feeling guilty about the environment plays into the Guardian Class's hands. Their message is the YOU are the problem.

    For the ultimate in environmental correctness: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/artic...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  12. JohnA
    Member

    feeling guilty about the environment plays into the Guardian Class's hands?

    Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    that's a good one.

    thank God the vast majority of scientists and world citizens are now smart enough to know that pumping tons and tons of CO2 into a finite common resource (the atmosphere) is a crime against humanity.

    your attempts to reverse spin the crisis into a 'hoax' has about as much chance of winning people's hearts and minds as a tobacco lobbyist at a cancer support group.

    the jury is in. the case is closed. no one is interested in debating it. we are all victims of this crime.

    but - i suppose - like any crime against humanity you will have your apologists and revisionists trotted out to buy time - and make appeals - while the criminals pack their bags and prepare their exit strategies.

    "your honor - i plead not guilty. the world was flat at the time of the crime."

    No one cares to debate whether pumping massive amounts of pollution into our common breathable air is 'good or bad' anymore. the only question now is how to stop it.

    man pumps massive amounts of CO2 into a finite resource - and you claim 'feeling guilty about it' is a plot by the invisible all-seeing illuminati eye?

    bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!

    that's the best you can do?

    jeez.

    you remind me of the people in the energy industry who told people that chromium was a necessary nutrient - while they poisoned their drinking water. i think they were criminally prosecuted. no?

    you remind me of those cigarette industry scientists who claimed that there is no proof nicotine is addictive.

    you remind me of holocaust revisionists - and all the other blatant in-your-face liars who seek to muddy the truth, confuse history, and protect the guilty.

    its like you are pissing in the pond while cursing the fish.

    we're talking O.J. type evidence here - two dead bodies - DNA evidence - blood in the white Bronco - shoe prints at the murder scene - motive - death threats - and an attempt to flee the country - and YOU are telling us "the glove don't fit - so we must acquit?"

    wow.

    some peopoe have no dignity or shame.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  13. truthmod
    Administrator

    OK, thanks for the clarification. I understand your perspective:

    If we accept (or think that) WE are the problem, then we may not have the clarity of purpose to fight those who are really in control of policy and the direction of this society. This is true. But it's also one side of a balance. The other is that we must not become too blindly self-righteous or strictly concerned with OUR rights, rather than seeing ourselves as part of an integrated, interconnected system.

    I'm just concerned that we are honest with ourselves and the facts as we resolutely subvert this insane system.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  14. funhouse1970
    Blocked

    John A YOU have no dignity or shame trying to smear me like you did.

    Reasonable people can disagree. And no, the debate isn't over. There are scientists who disagree and say the Sun drives climate change.

    And if you don't think there is an Elite ("Guardian Class") then you are seriously deluded.

    "I'm more worried about the intellectual climate" http://demanddebate.com/

    Posted 16 years ago #
  15. JohnA
    Member

    i apologize for the sarcasm. i think that's what triggered his response.

    but i disagree that this is a debatable topic. the sun is driving climate change? sorry - but that's a HIGHLY suspect position to be fronting here - and in my opinion it makes your posts highly suspect - because it is simply so out of step with reality and the scientific facts.

    additionally - you appeared to be baiting the topic by accusing me of not acknowledging a "guardian class." i do. i simply object to your USAGE of the term. as if all of our concerns about CO2 emissions is somehow benefiting the every same elitists who are guilty of plundering our resources and fouling our atmosphere. as if all of the scientific research from scientists around the world is an illuminati plot.

    puh-leeze. go sell crazy elsewhere.

    not only is this 'theory' counter-intuitive - it is quite frankly rubbish - and smacks of intentional disruption. it smacks of intentional tin-foil-hat-ism. it smacks of the same sort of intentional insertion of pods and flashes and smoke and mirrors into the 911 truth movement that continues to this day.

    You talk about civil debate. That’s nice. Unfortunately, not every topic is open to debate when the overwhelming evidence favors the TRUTH. Intelligent design? It’s a flat world? UFOs? Holocaust denial? Massive amounts of CO2 does not affect the environment?

    Rubbish

    Posted 16 years ago #
  16. truthmover
    Administrator

    Moderator Comment

    As the vast majority of the world's climate scientist concur that humans are at least partially responsible for the warming of our atmosphere, it is therefore off topic at this forum to discuss the opinion humans do not have an impact on that warming.

    Here we are trying to get at the truth, which has a lot to do with the scientific method, which doctors of scientific practice understand a lot better than even we do. Proposing that all the worlds scientists are involved in a conspiracy to taint their research is an anti-intellectual position that will not be tolerated in this forum.

    Please refrain from discussion of this topic. Future posts on this topic will be deleted.

    Posted 16 years ago #

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