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Alternative banking systems? (76 posts)

  1. nornnxx65
    Member

    interesting, it doesn't seem to be big yet, but they've got a lot of links http://www.community-exchange.org/misc/links.htm

    they point out a lot of problems with the current money system, http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/badmoney.ht...

    but at least some of the problems (like interest-usury) can simply be eliminated by changing the way the current system is structured and managed; principally, the fact that's it's not designed to serve the People, human beings, the public interest; it's structured to serve (and is managed by) a non-productive, selfish, short-sighted, ignorant investor/leisure class of so-called "elites", who profit from insider/private control of the Fed, interest, wars, shock-doctrine capitalist terror projects like 9/11's and Katrinas, price-fixing, market manipulation, a certain level of unemployment to keep wages suppressed (Greenspan admitted this), exploitation of workers, permanent subjugation of third world nations and first world consumers to debt slavery, little/no regulation on pollution and polluters, private control of the mass media and political/electoral process, etc. etc.

    This still seems to me like a more immediately viable option, one that would result in much good, unless someone points out holes here, or i find them elsewhere- haven't had much time to dig into it yet:

    A far more efficient economic system is possible by Bart Klein Ikink http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-far-more-effici...

    Of course, Congress will not abolish the banker's interest scam w/o massive public support- but if we get to 1/3 unemployment in this country, if the corporate criminal class can't get their economic shell game back together, people are going to make things happen. Incumbents were turned out en masse during the Great Depression.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. chrisc
    Member

    From one the The Oil Drum regulars:

    In a finite world, we will soon find ourselves in a level or declining economy, simply because there are not enough easily-extractible resources to support growth without causing huge price spikes, followed by debt defaults, and another round of credit contraction and commodity price crashes. The only solution I can see is to develop a new monetary system that is not debt based, and is not expected to grow. Ideally, it would decline as there are fewer resources, and as the economy naturally declines.

    With a flat or declining economy, long-term debt no longer makes sense. The likelihood that borrowers will be able to repay loans with interest becomes quite low, because the economic system as a whole is not growing and producing a surplus that can be used toward interest payments. It is much easier for a borrower to repay a 20-year mortgage with interest when he is getting promotions and salary increases than when his employer is downsizing and cutting hours.

    Somehow, a monetary system needs to be devised which operates without debt, except for very short-term debt to facilitate commercial transactions. In addition, we need to extract ourselves from the debt morass we have created. There is now far more debt and far more promises like Social Security and Medicare than can possibly be honored with existing resources.

    The only way I can imagine transitioning to a new form of monetary system is by having an overlap period in which both monetary systems are in place. The new money might initially be limited in supply and only be good for food and energy products (somewhat like a rationing system). People would receive some pay in each monetary system. Eventually, the new monetary system would replace our current seriously problematic system.

    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4770

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. nornnxx65
    Member

    "In a finite world"; this does not take into account the tremendous value being added to the human race and the economy by the accelerating evolution of science and information technology, or that renewable energies like solar, wind, tidal, wave and geothermal and electric vehicles will make coal, oil and nuclear obsolete in the next decade or 2. I don't see that it would be a bad thing to base the value of money on the infinite potential of human imagination, and the unknown infinite limits of artificial intelligence.

    Foreword to The Intelligent Universe by Ray Kurzweil http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?m=1

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. truthmov
    Key Master

    I'm not too much of a fan of the "infinite potential" school. The people who espouse this philosophy always seem to be offended when you bring up reality. For them, it's all been worth it, because techno spiritual transcendence is right around the corner. Sounds like the church of worshipping your own asshole to me.

    I wouldn't trust these people to design anything, most especially not an economy or a monetary system.

    We've got a lot of supposed "geniuses" out there who are absolutely, 100% deluded and insane.

    What are we going to do--incinerate the last square inch of earth so we can create a mega-supercomputer and download our consciousness into it, where we can live in virtual reality with virtual animals and virtual food?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kurzweil#Stance_o...

    "And ultimately these computers will be in our bodies and brains...so it really is one civilization. I object to the word 'Transhumanism' because—or 'Posthumanism'—because it implies we’re going beyond humanity. I think this is the human—maybe 'Postbiological' ultimately—but it's a part of the human civilization. --Response to a question regarding future competition between human- and artificial intelligence. Early 2005 Harvard conference

    "These slides that Gore puts up [in his film An Inconvenient Truth] are ludicrous. They don't account for anything like the technological progress we're going to experience." --CNN Money interview. May 2, 2007

    "...death is a tragedy. That is our instinctive reaction and that reaction is correct. In my view it is not death that gives life meaning. Life gives life meaning. The creation of knowledge in all its forms (art, music, science, etc.) and relationships gives life meaning. And death is disruptive of that." --Washington Post interview. June 19th, 2006 [71]

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. emanuel
    Member

    nornnxx65 said:

    or that renewable energies like solar, wind, tidal, wave and geothermal and electric vehicles will make coal, oil and nuclear obsolete in the next decade or 2

    I would like to recomend that you read "The Party's Over," a book by Richard Heinberg. He very thoroughly explains why renewables can never produce even remotely the amount of energy we get from oil.

    truthmov said:

    We've got a lot of supposed "geniuses" out there who are absolutely, 100% deluded and insane.

    This reminds me of an astronomy forum I was on a few years ago, when NASA re-wrote its mission statement to remove the clause that talks about "protecting the earth." I have an interest in astronomy and usually did not make political posts there, but after this NASA thing, I posted something about global warming and energy resources. Now these are very smart people, scientists and the like. And do you know what the majority response was to my post? In all seriousness these people said they were not worried because when energy runs out here and the earth becomes inhospitable to us, humans will simply colonize other planets.

    Emanuel

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. chrisc
    Member

    For them, it's all been worth it, because techno spiritual transcendence is right around the corner.

    Indeed, someone was saying more-or-less this a while ago on the Truth Action forum.

    • Is genocide acceptable?
    • Is the 6th mass mass extinction acceptable?
    • Is the destruction of the biosphere acceptable -- because this is where we are heading.

    I used to think it would all turn out to have been worth it in the end. I don't think this is the case any more. The means are wrong and the end isn't worth it.

    We need to fundamentally change direction.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. nornnxx65
    Member

    i've never advocated that people should waste or pollute or tolerate genocide because technology will solve these problems, and as far as i know Kurzweil doesn't either. In fact, i think the oil depletion protocol makes more sense than current corporate economic policies. Conserving energy and the biosphere should be a priority.

    However, it seems to me to that it's reasonable to expect that the trend of this universe increasing in information, complexity and order, that has been very consistent for 13.9 billion years (age of the universe, most up to date estimate), is likely to continue for the foreseeable future. In fact, Kurzweil's methods have allowed him to make a great many accurate predictions about new technologies and rates of adoption- he predicted the Soviet Union would collapse, at least a year before it happened- his theory, in a nut shell, was that the increasing availability of information due to the proliferation of communications technology was causing a corresponding loss in the ability of the state to control it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Kurzweil#The_...

    From Nothing, a Big Bang, to conscious creatures who create the Network Age; the chances of its evolution and destiny stopping with the 3lbs of mush in our skulls (or a cinder of a planet) seem remote. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45...

    We shall see; meanwhile, the Earth and the human race are being subjected to all kinds of unnecessary harm, and in any case, it doesn't change whether this economic system actually is more efficient or not; this is just about banning interest and taxing money:

    A far more efficient economic system is possible by Bart Klein Ikink http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-far-more-effici...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  8. chrisc
    Member

    The story about Wörgl from date Bart Klein Ikink appears to be a copy and paste from a 2002 article:

    Wörgl's Stamp Scrip – The Threat of a Good Example?

    newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/v105/_show_article/_a000105-000002.htm

    That article links to http://www.transaction.net/ and this article also has some links pointing there:

    A growing number of activists are focusing on the question of the role of money in the ongoing destruction of the natural environment. Last month, Enric Duran, a Spanish activist borrowed over €500,000 from banks, gave it away to activist organizations and then distributed 200,000 copies of a newspaper in which he publicly refused to pay the money back.

    http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/blackspot/blackspot...

    And transaction.net promotes a book, The Future of Money: Creating New Wealth, Work, and a Wiser World by Bernard Lietaer, http://www.transaction.net/money/book/ and also an article by Howard Rheingold, The Internet and the Future of Money, http://www.transaction.net/press/tomorrow.html

    I haven't followed all these things up yet...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  9. nornnxx65
    Member

    good digging, chrisc; the Worgi section of Ikink's article looks to be a clear plagiarism from http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/v105/_show_article/_a000105-000002.htm (unless that's not the orig, either). The rest of his article may be original, but as he lifted the text and cite the source, i'll never link to that article again, and likely will not pay much attention to Ikink.

    However, from googling, it appears the basic facts of the Worgi history are accurate.

    I checked the other links you posted, glanced thru the texts, haven't given read them yet, thanks

    Checked my college's research databases:

    jstor.org has 114 articles citing "Silvio Gesell", here's one:

    The Political Economy of Silvio Gesell: A Century of Activism- Werner Onken- American Journal of Economics and Sociology, Vol. 59, No. 4 (Oct., 2000), pp. 609-622 Published by: American Journal of Economics and Sociology, Inc.

    Abstract: "Silvio Gesell (1862-1930) pioneered a version of the market economy that was about competitive entrepreneurship but not about capitalism. The financial interests of the hoarders of scarce bank financing and those leveraged with speculative land dealings were to be sacrificed for the greater good of a nation of free and enterprising men and women. Gesell was a radical reformer and quite a famous one, having received more than a respectful mention in John Maynard Keynes' "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money". Keynes dubbed Gesell a non-Marxian socialist. Gesell founded the Free Economy School, which is undergoing a renaissance today in Eastern Europe as a possible model for a redesigned transition economy."

    I'm not an economist, but I'm smart enough to know the Bush Administration, Congress and corporate media are covering up whatever the truth is.

    The idea of banning interest and taxing money is very simple. Banning interest might hurt banker's feelings and profits, it would be a boon for anyone wanting to borrow money- as i posted earlier, i'm not impressed by the interest paid on savings, which is consistently being eaten by inflation, or the return from the stock market and the current socio-political economic order, considering the economic meltdown in progress.

    The other element, taxing money, works with human nature to produce a greater good for all; now there's an incentive for the money holders to get rid of their money, either thru spending, lending or investment- spending is good for the economy and society, as is access to "credit", and long term investment. The rate of money's circulation goes up, enriching all thru whose hands the money passes. In Worgi some of the effects were full employment, full public coffers funding public works projects, dropping prices and an increase in the value of money- this means that when loans are repaid, the money is worth more than when you lent it out. In an economy with full employment, everyone's a good credit risk. This way, the system benefits even the unproductive uber-rich class, who are currently destroying their own wealth with their economic practices, though they're sitting on top of the rest of us on a shrinking pile.

    I'm a sociology not an economics major, but i can understand simple arguments. At some point i will probably dig into the peer-reviewed literature, but sometimes the best info i get on things simply comes from posting in a comment thread, rather than trying to dig thru tons of pages and understand shit that's over my head. At some point i will probably sign up at JREF just to post some links and see what the shills for the corporate state have to say about it- "Silvio Gesell" is mentioned somewhere in this thread, don't have time now to dig thru all the mental garbage for the good stuff. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99635&...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  10. nornnxx65
    Member

    correction; i meant Ikink lifted the text and DIDN'T cite the source

    Posted 16 years ago #
  11. chrisc
    Member

    i meant Ikink lifted the text and DIDN'T cite the source

    Right.

    The URL contains two underscores in a row which the forum code can't cope with -- this URL will redirect to the 2002 article by Martin Oliver, Wörgl's Stamp Scrip – The Threat of a Good Example?:

    http://tiny.cc/VsySA

    Posted 16 years ago #
  12. chrisc
    Member

    Money and Liberation - The Micropolitics of Alternative Currency Movements

    By Peter North

    A firsthand view of local currencies that are providing alternatives to global capital.

    Is conventional money simply a discourse? Is it merely a socially constructed unit of exchange? If money is not an actual thing, are people then free to make collective agreements to use other forms of currency that might work more effectively for them? Proponents of “better money” argue that they have created currencies that value people more than profitability, ensuring that human needs are met with reasonable costs and decent wages—and supporting local economies that emphasize local sustainability. How did proponents develop these new economies? Are their claims valid?

    Grappling with these questions and more, Money and Liberation examines the experiences of groups who have tried to build a more equitable world by inventing new forms of money. Presenting in-depth profiles of the trading networks that have been constructed both historically and more recently, including Local Exchange Trading Schemes (England), Green Dollars (New Zealand), Talente (Hungary), and the barter system in Argentina, Peter North shows how the use of currency has been redefined as part of political action, revealing surprising political ambiguity and a nuanced understanding of the potential and limits on alternative currencies as a resistance practice.

    http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/N/north_money.html

    This looks like a good book to put on your Xmas wishlist... or to order from the local library...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  13. chrisc
    Member

    A book by Silvio Gesell, made available online:

    The NATURAL ECONOMIC ORDER

    By Silvio Gesell translated by Philip Pye M.A.
    http://www.appropriate-economics.org/ebooks/neo/ne...

    I found this link in a comment posted to this blog post:

    In We We Trust: The Prospect Of Local Currencies

    http://www.joshuazeidner.com/2008/03/in-we-we-trus...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  14. chrisc
    Member

    A page of videos about Complementary Currencies: http://www.complementarycurrency.org/ccvideo.html

    This is a very interesting looking site and it also has a photo of the Worgl Community Currency!

    Worgl Community Currency

    Posted 16 years ago #
  15. nornnxx65
    Member

    great finds, chrisc, this is all really encouraging; it seems there's a monetary truth and justice movement, and it may even be as large as the 9/11 truth movement, and just as suppressed by the idiot box gatekeepers (and plagued by disinfo as well).

    This link may have already been posted in this thread- Ithaca Hours; apparently in use since in Ithaca, NY since 1991, sounds like it's working well for them.

    Creating Community Economics with Local Currency by Paul Glover http://www.ithacahours.com/intro.html Here in Ithaca, New York, we've begun to gain control of the social and environmental effects of commerce by issuing over $110,000 of our own local paper money, to thousands of residents, since 1991.

    I have not explored this site, posting it for review and debunking or adoption by interested people if this is a system that will serve people and the public interest.

    The Fed has got to go. Money is a public good and part of the commons, like air, water, the airwaves- and the electoral system (ha ha). At least most people agree, even many in the power elite. The Federal Reserve system should be replaced by a system owned and controlled by the People, a system that serves the greatest good. It seems there may be many possible systems that work better, than minimize damage, suffering and harm, that will lead to greater prosperity and basic needs being met. The 1% elite investor class in the US and other nations benefit from having a certain level of unemployment; it keeps wages down and prices up. They also benefit from interest being charged on money; the Fed's owners, with their inside knowledge and control of interest rates are able to position themselves in the best possible position no matter what's going on the world, and they are able to engineer social, economic and political conditions with interest rates. They are able to accumulate enormous amounts of wealth and money doing nothing useful, and they use their wealth to buy control of politicians and media, which they use to further their agenda. The Bible says that interest is usury; check any dictionary and if it's honest enough to even say so, you'll find it says that that "interest" is an "obsolete" definition of "usury"; who decided "God's" definition was "obsolete"? Now the "politically correct" and "socially accepted" definition of usury is "excessive" interest- and 20-35% on credit card debt that was extended by a fraudulent system isn't "excessive"- it's the "only way"; if we place any restrictions, the bankers will leave for Mars, and take their jobs and money with them! Along with the knowledge of how to create money with the "flick of a pen"!

    I keep thinking about this concept of banning interest and taxing money; what's the downside? It sounds like it would break the bankers monopoly stranglehold on life and creativity, and could lead to enormous prosperity for everyone, less taxes, increased investment in public infrastructure and technology, people, communities, preserving nature and cleaning up pollution.

    Again, i'm interested in sociology, don't know much about economics, although, obviously, neither do the Fed, Wall Street and the Treasury, as they've been destroying their own wealth, along with everyone else's, while suppressing people who predicted the results of their policies years ago.

    Fascinating thread.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  16. nornnxx65
    Member

    Also-

    http://www.ithacahours.com/intro.html "Loans of HOURS are made with NO INTEREST CHARGED. These range $50- $30,000 value.

    HOURS are legal. Professor Lewis Solomon of George Washington University has written a book titled "Rethinking Our Centralized Monetary System: the Case for a System of Local Currencies" (Praeger, 1996) which is an extensive case law study of the legality of local currency. IRS and FED officials have been contacted by media, and repeatedly have said there is no prohibition of local currency, as long as it does not look like dollars, as long as denominations are at least $1.00 value, and if it is regarded as taxable income."

    Posted 16 years ago #
  17. truthmod
    Administrator

    Yes, great stuff on this thread.

    I'm impressed by the Enric Duran loan activism. What if a network of people all decided to do this in order to fund some really big, really revolutionary projects? This guy was able to borrow €500,000...imagine what a bunch of people could get. None of us want to go to prison or be in debt for the rest of our lives, but if we're talking about saving the planet, maybe it's time to take some bigger risks than making websites and holding up banners.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/19/spain
    http://polaris.moviments.net:8000/95-money-created...

    More local currencies:

    http://www.zpub.com/notes/LocalCurrency.html

    Posted 16 years ago #
  18. nornnxx65
    Member

    more good links; Duran is Robin Hood, indeed- considering that the banking system is a crime against humanity and a fraud, i'm not mad at him, although i won't do it myself. His oped is long, haven't finished it. Local currencies are everywhere! Seems the potential is here for systemic reform, but increased public awareness, motivation and organized action that can't be effectively disrupted will be needed to get it.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  19. truthmod
    Administrator

    I don't like the fact that the top hit for "community currency" is Carol Brouillet's site:

    http://www.communitycurrency.org/

    The page is infamously poorly designed, and it has all kinds of rambling information, mostly about 9/11 truth. Deception Dollars are not community currency and there is actually very little info on local currencies or monetary reform on this page, besides a link at the top to:

    http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/cc/

    I think it's bad news that something as powerfully subversive as local currency might get dismissed because this is seemingly the "main" website promoting it.

    It may not be an intentional diversion, but I think Carol should give up that URL or actually create a decent site on the eponymous topic.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  20. chrisc
    Member

    I don't like the fact that the top hit for "community currency" is Carol Brouillet's site

    Agreed.

    Also:

    The producer of Money as Debt has a page about the film, which ends with a link to Carol Brouillet's site

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/1319/page/2?r...

    He has also promoted "chemtrails" Dave von Kleist's 911 In Plane Site...

    As nornnxx65 said:

    it seems there's a monetary truth and justice movement, and it may even be as large as the 9/11 truth movement, and just as suppressed by the idiot box gatekeepers (and plagued by disinfo as well)

    If nothing else 9/11 has enabled us to sift through the chaff quicker...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  21. Durruti
    Member

    Couple years ago I scanned/compiled some of Eric Fromm's work on Market economy, including pseudo socialist market economies...I think it is useful to this discussion...

    The most important fact for understanding both the character and the secret religion of contemporary human society is the change in the social character from the earlier era of capitalism to the second part of the twentieth century. The authoritarian-obsessive-hoarding character that had begun to develop in the sixteenth century, and continued to be the dominant character structure at least in the middle classes until the end of the nineteenth century, was slowly blended with or replaced by the marketing character. I have called this phenomenon the "marketing character" because it is based on experiencing oneself as a commodity, and one's value not as "use value" but as "ex-change value. "

    --

    What is the meaning of all this in psychological terms? What happens on the market is that all things appear as commodities. What is the difference between a thing and a commodity? This glass of water here is a thing that at the moment I can use to hold water and so on. It is very useful to me. It is not particularly pretty, but it is what it is. However, as a commodity it is something I can buy, which has a certain price, and I perceive of it not only as this thing, as something that has a certain use value as they say, but as a commodity that has a certain exchange value. It appears as a commodity in the market, and its function as a commodity is in the sense that I can describe it as a fifty-cent or twenty-five-cent thing. That is, so to say, I can express this thing in terms of money, or in terms of an abstraction. In fact, if you take your own attitude toward things and if you analyze it a little, you will find that you relate yourself to things to a large extent, not as concrete things, but as commodities. You perceive already of a thing in terms of its abstract money value, in terms of its exchange value. The Pathology of Normalcy, pp. 61-62.

    --

    In German, "love" has the same root as "praise," but also as "joy" and "freedom." These words express an experience, a complex of experiences. There is no love in which there no joy, freedom, and praise. There is an old French folk song that says "L'amour est l'enfant de la liberte" (Love is the child of freedom). Love and freedom are brought to- gether in this folk song. Today, this inner, most profound connection between love and freedom is hardly experienced in this way. Quite the contrary. Most people are afraid that they will lose their freedom when they love, and they can- not believe that love at the same time indicates the greatest development of freedom. "The Unthinkable," p. 24.

    --

    The nature of the having mode of existence follows from the nature of private property. In this mode of existence all that matters is my acquisition of property and my unlimited right to keep what I have acquired. The having mode ex- cludes others; it does not require any further effort on my part to keep my property or to make productive use of it. The Buddha has described this mode of behavior as craving, the Jewish and Christian religions as coveting; it transforms everybody and everything into something dead and subject to another's power. To Have Or to Be?, pp. 76-77.

    --

    In the so-called socialist countries, private property has not at all been abolished. It does not matter for the worker whether the factories have been taken over by the state or belong to a large company. In a factory that has been taken over by the state, the worker has just as little to say as in a western factory, even less. Furthermore, state socialism's big appeal is directed toward the instinct to possess. Having a car is much more the anticipation of a Russian than of an American. The Russians are awaiting the happiness of an era when everyone owns a car.

    No new society is created by the abolition of so-called private property as such-the sense of property remains. The real question is whether the emphasis is changed from having to being, as can be encountered in many primitive societies or even to a certain degree in medieval society. It depends on one's attitude toward life, on joy of being, on genuine activity. And this depends to a crucial extent on the structure of a society.

    The pat formula of the abolition of private property or of the socialization of the means of production has essentially proven to be a fiction. As we have already said, it is basically the same whether a factory belongs to an owner or to the state. All that matters is whether, and to what extent, a person's inner attitude shifts from having to being. When having is no longer important, then it does not matter whether one person has a little more than another. On the contrary: precisely the people who say that everyone must have exactly the same amount are very often just covert proxies of a possessive attitude. Envy motivates them. They are so obsessed with the importance of having that they can conceive of justice only under the condition that nobody has a little more than anybody else. These are basi- cally envious people who live altogether in an orientation toward having but who rationalize their envy as "justice." -Interview with Reif 1977, pp. 30-32.

    -

    To give another example: there is a horse race among the American Pueblo Indians. But when two horses cross the finish line at about the same time, then they are both win- ners. The Pueblos are not interested in whether one is better than the other; and, indeed, this is also much more realistic, since there is no difference if one or the other is ahead by a millimeter. Practically speaking, both ran equally quickly. Of course, this is only possible if the concept of success does not exist, since, from the standpoint of success, the person who was ahead by one millimeter has won and was successful.

    By this, I want to say that concepts such as "success," which appear to us to be natural in our language, are purely sociologically conditioned concepts that exist just as infre- quently in many other societies as the concept of "exploitation." They have grown out of the activity of a society and will also vanish in another society and activity. Every society has the greatest skill for the words that are particularly important for its social structure.

    --

    Consciously, then, these people are not bored. At this point, one must indeed ask analytically whether it is possi- ble that these people are perhaps unconsciously empty, bored, and alienated and whether it is possible that they are passive people unconsciously-the eternal infant who does not only wait for his bottle, but for whom everything is a bottle and who never develops an activity by his own powers.

    In fact, the anxious, bored, alienated person compensates for his anxiety by a compulsive consumption that, as a gen- eral illness-or, more precisely, as a symptom of the "pathology of normalcyw-no one thinks is an illness. Indeed, one thinks of the idea of "illness" only when someone is sicker than other people. When, however everyone suffers from the same illness, the idea of illness does not at all arise in people's minds. Thus, this inner void, this inner anxiety is symbolically cured by compulsive consumption. Compulsive eating disorder is the paradigm of this mechanism. If one looks into why certain people suffer from compulsive eating disorders, then one indeed finds that, behind this disorder, which is acknowledged as such, there is some- thing unconscious, namely, depression or anxiety. A person feels empty, and in order simultaneously to fill this void symbolically, he fills himself up with other things, with things that come from the outside, in order to overcome the feeling of inner emptiness and inner weakness. Many people notice in themselves that, when they are anxious or feel depressed, they have a certain tendency to buy some- thing or to go to the refrigerator or to eat a little more than usual and that they then feel somewhat less depressed and somewhat less anxious.

    --

    In reality, we are dealing with a circulus vitiosus: the per- son who becomes anxious in this system consumes. But also the person who is lured to consumption becomes anx- ious, because he becomes a passive person, because he al- ways only takes things in, because he does not actively experience anything in the world. The more anxious he becomes, the more he must consume, and the more he consumes, the more anxious he becomes.

    --

    Man is governed by a peculiar dichotomy. He is afraid of losing the former state, which is one of certainty, and yet he wants to arrive at a new state that gives rise to the possibility of using his proper forces more freely and more completely. Man is always torn between the wish to regress to the womb and the wish to be fully born. Every act of birth requires the courage to let go of something, to let go of the womb, to let go of the breast, to let go of the lap, to let go of the hand, to let go eventually of all certainties, and to rely upon one thing only: one's own powers to be aware and to respond; that is, one's own creativity.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  22. nornnxx65
    Member

    Reposting a review of Web of Debt by T. Anderson, and comment by Ellen Brown on that thread. Many of the comments on Anderson's review are ad homs and straw men; i.e. claiming the author's a neocon, supports the Fed, etc. apparently because he pointed out errors in the book, not because he expressed those views. If anyone claimed that Brown didn't make these mistakes, i missed it; in her comment, she doesn't address the errors he mentions. I don't know anything about Anderson other than what he's posted at Amazon- in one comment he mentions he likes the Austrian school of economics, which is what Silvio Gesell was part of. I left some questions for him here about that, and a question about the source of his Greenspan quote: http://www.amazon.com/review/RO95IAFEB8IF8/ref=cm_...

    Review of Web of Debt by T. Anderson http://www.amazon.com/review/RO95IAFEB8IF8/ref=cm_...

    I bought this book because of the favorable reviews - all five-star ratings. What I found, however, was that the truth regarding the evils of discount banking was being mixed with the polemics of the LaRouche camp. Let me be clear, the LaRouche group does some of the best research in the world as has been conceded by the CIA, but their socialist views and conspiratorial rants are not always supportable. The author does include some competing political and economic views, but ends up discarding these views with anecdotes that fall short of sound analysis.

    I would be persuaded to have assigned two stars were it not for the sloppy editing. Thomas Jefferson was not the second President of the United States. Cromwell's battle against Charles I was not the "Glorious Revolution," and Lincoln did not free any slaves. Perhaps I am making too much of a trivial thing, but when I see a pattern of errors that I can easily identify, I start to question how many errors are buried in the material that is new to me. To add insult to injury, there are spelling errors in some of the web links that make it difficult to audit some the author's references.

    As mentioned above, the core theme - that discount banking is an evil of great magnitude - is spot on and there is a lot of information regarding the extent of that evil that is worthwhile. However, it is untenable to portray free trade as merely a tool of British Imperialism the fact that free trade, like banking, can be abused notwithstanding. Likewise, the advantages of commodity money are too readily discarded in order to support fiat money and crank Keynesian theories. How we can trust politicians with our money system any more than we can the bankers is not clear to me; it seems that we would be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The author reaches out to former Presidents and Founding Fathers to support this concept but fails to present the whole truth. There is not room in this review to enumerate these defects, but I would caution any reader to proceed with caution, many a conclusion is based on half-truths and shallow analysis culminating in a call for bigger government with fewer controls.

    Ellen Brown's response: http://www.amazon.com/review/RO95IAFEB8IF8/ref=cm_...

    Wow, I just now noticed this "comment" option to Amazon reviews. On getting the book out in haste, I had spent 5 years on it already, working full time, and felt I was dragging my feet while the economy was on the verge of collapse. The first Bear Stearns debacle occurred in June 2007. I got this book out 2 weeks later, with a discussion of the Bear Stearns hedge fund problem in it. Pretty fast I thought! I also wanted to get it out because I was attending two money reform conferences in September and October, and I wanted to have something in print so I could get their feedback. I did get some really good feedback, which I incorporated in my revised 2008 edition. I could keep revising it by the month as the collapse continues, but I've decided that writing articles is a more efficient use of time. I'm really really tired, but I'm going to keep on it, because I think it's the most important subject we are faced with today. I'm not trying to promote any political party or group, and I'm not a "Keynesian." If anything, I'm a Greenbacker, a party that disappeared in the 19th century. Basically I'm just a lonely writer, living with my mother in a retirement community, trying to write prose that captures the imagination long enough to keep the pages turning . . .

    Posted 16 years ago #
  23. truthmod
    Administrator

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-talk_mo...

    Milwaukee neighborhoods could print own money
    2 neighborhoods consider printing own currency for exclusive use in local stores

    They may be talking funny money, but it's not funny business.

    Residents from the Milwaukee neighborhoods of Riverwest and East Side are scheduled to meet Wednesday to discuss printing their own money. The idea is that the local cash could be used at neighborhood stores and businesses, thus encouraging local spending. The result, supporters hope, would be a bustling local economy, even as the rest of the nation deals with a recession.

    "You have all these people who have local currency, and they're going to spend it at local stores," said Sura Faraj, a community organizer who is helping spearhead the plan. "They can't spend it at the Wal-Mart or the Home Depot, but they can spend it at their local hardware store or their local grocery store."

    Posted 16 years ago #
  24. nornnxx65
    Member

    From George Washington:

    Of the People, By the People, and For the People http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/12/of-p...

    There are 3 important - but seemingly unrelated - trends:

    • The banks have been given hundreds of billions of dollars, but refuse to lend to people

    • Investors are so afraid of losing money, that they are buying short-term treasuries with negative return

    • Many thousands of people in developed countries are making small loans online to poor entrepreneurs in developing countries. The percentage of borrowers who repay the loans is very high Banks are ripping off our money, and giving us nothing in return. People who have saved money don't know what to do with it, and are so desperate that they will pay the government to hold it temporarily. The microcredit movement has proven that small loans can be made and tracked online. The guy who invented the idea behind microcredit lending won a Nobel prize for doing so.

    The financial elite are ruining our countries, stealing our money and robbing us of our future.

    In the same way that we need to "be the media" - since the mainstream press censors the truth and serves as the stenographer for those in power - let's "be the financial system" as well. We could charge 1% interest: its much lower than the banks, and its much higher than the negative returns on short-term treasury bills.

    Why not set up our own system of lending and borrowing? Let's create a financial system ourselves that really works. One of the people, by the people and for the people.

    The big banks are broke anyway. They owe more than they can possibly pay on derivatives and other bad investments. The sooner we create our own financial system, the less painful will the transition be to a post-Wall Street world, and the sooner we can start to "free up liquidity" and to re-build a sustainable economy.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  25. chrisc
    Member

    Thread about The JAK Members Bank:

    http://transitiontowns.org/forum/topic.php?id=191

    From the Wikipedia:

    The JAK Members Bank, or JAK Medlemsbank, is a cooperative, member-owned bank based in Skovde, Sweden. JAK is an acronym for Jord Arbete Kapital in Swedish or Land Labour Capital. A membership of approximately 35,000 (as of 2008) dictates the bank's policy and direction. Board of Directors is voted annually by members, who are allowed only to have one share of the bank. Similar to Islamic banking, the JAK Members Bank does not charge or pay interest on its loans

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAK_members_bank

    However they do use Euros -- when I looked into Islamic banking in the UK they had a charge, directly linked to the Bank of Englands base rate but didn't call it interest -- it seemed to be essentially the same thing. I had come to the conclusion that an alternative non-interest banking system would have to alo use an alternative currency but perhaps it doesn't...

    Posted 16 years ago #

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