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New Coca-Cola "Truther" site (44 posts)

26. Victronix
    Member

    Ethically, as I allude to above, there is a very substantial difference between using images of YOURSELF that are perceived by others as sexy and using images of OTHERS that YOU perceive as sexy, for marketing purposes and otherwise.

    People forget that a lot of innocent men and women were transformed into human ash that morning.

    Making sexy clothing out of the event is likely not appreciated by the families, firefighters, EMTs, police and others who died and who mourn them still.

    I understand that everyone has good intentions, but sometimes we're into all this hip stuff to sell things and to make the case in every way possible, but we forget what it is we're really talking about. Humans being reduced to ash.

    Average people connect 9/11 with murder and tragedy.

    But 9/11 activists are typically mocked for how unaffected we are by the pain so many people have felt -- nerds at keyboards who aren't in touch with reality. Using sex to sell will be offensive to many, regardless of the good intentions or the aesthetics we are steeped in everyday.

    This is a site with beautiful graphics that also respects the people of that day --

    http://www.neverabandon.com/

    Why not see about taking some of the "feel" of this site? Is there a way to make it more respectful? The obvious talent would be better used if the families and first responders could respect it too.

    Posted 17 years ago #
27. casseia
    Member

    Frankly, I find that a surprisingly feeble argument, Victronix. Theirs is not the first site and probably won't be the last to use something other than "beautiful graphics that also respec[t] the people of that day" to garner attention, so there must be something more precise that is tweaking people's sensibilities. Should the San Diego ladies wear burkas truthing so that they can post images of themselves on their own website without being accused of "using sex" or should there be an absolute ban on tee-shirt sales related to 9/11 truth? Both?

    I hope I'm misreading, but your last paragraph makes it sound as though I have some kind of connection to that website and I don't. (My intent is to contact Abby with my question through 911blogger just like anyone would.) I'm an elderly curmudgeon in the Pacific Northwest whose post-lactation boobs aren't going to sell anything, I'm afraid. I'm just increasingly intrigued by the negative reaction to their site.

    Edit: I just checked out the site you cited. It is clearly aimed at an entirely different audience with a different core focus -- and you really can't be saying you want truthers to chuck all the basic principles of marketing out the window. Aesthetically it is similar -- so I wonder if Jan reads this one also as "anarchist" or if there are differences she might point out?

    Posted 17 years ago #
28. truthmover
    Administrator

    But 9/11 activists are typically mocked for how unaffected we are by the pain so many people have felt -- nerds at keyboards who aren't in touch with reality. Using sex to sell will be offensive to many, regardless of the good intentions or the aesthetics we are steeped in everyday.

    Thanks Vic. That's what I was thinking about all this, but couldn't put in terms I was satisfied with. This site doesn't well represent the gravity of the situation. How is it that they are raising money for the Feal Good Foundation, but do not appear committed to raising awareness of its purpose?

    This is a site with beautiful graphics that also respects the people of that day --

    http://www.neverabandon.com/

    In contrast, as Victronix points out, this new site seems to be out of touch with how one presents this issue in a manner that respects those who have lost the most. And I assume that they are going to hear about it quite a bit. I look forward to seeing how responsive they are to people's concerns.

    Posted 17 years ago #
29. truthmover
    Administrator

    Should the San Diego ladies wear burkas truthing so that they can post images of themselves on their own website without being accused of "using sex" or should there be an absolute ban on tee-shirt sales related to 9/11 truth? Both?

    This whole conversation seems a bit odd to me. There is nothing wrong with selling shirts. There is nothing wrong with women wearing tank tops. Older women can buy the men's shirt. ;) There is nothing wrong with selling shirts by modeling them. There is nothing wrong with 9/11 truth shirts.

    In fact the shirt issue is not my biggest concern with this site. Its a fairly good presentation of some of the more relevant evidence right next to partisan support for a political candidate, and multiple links to Infowars with its myriad of unrelated topics.

    Once again, go Ron Paul, as I'd say for any candidate running. And go Alex Jones as I'd say accepting the diversity of opinions in this country. Ron Paul thinks we're crazy, and Alex Jones hits 9/11 well but brings will him everything else Ron Paul is saying, much of it off topic to a global and non-partisan movement for truth.

    So, hey, no beef. Trying not to generalize to heavily. But I'm seeing another 'Libertarians for 9/11 Truth' website. That's all good. Go Libertarians for 9/11 Truth, as I'd say to build some kind of a bridge. But their reach will be quite narrow. Diversity of approach is positive, and we will all learn something from their experience.

    And yet we might also hope and recommend that people sideline their personal, regional, and cultural ideology as best they can in the interest of promoting unity around globally relevant principles.

    I'm really trying to be positive here. I'm always trying to be positive here. And of course some of that positive contribution is highly critical. I think all of us are trying to be positive is one manner or another. Thanks everyone for coming here and making this the positive place it is.

    Casseia, we're not wishing they fail, or calling them agents, or saying they are stupid. We are critiquing specific decisions made in the creation of this website. We don't assume their incompetence. We therefore are holding them accountable for these decisions by being openly critical. If this had been an invitation to look at a beta version for comment I think everyone here would have approached this in a different manner. But they made their choices, and now we are formulating a response.

    What do you feel would have been the appropriate response for us to have had? I would like to point out that TruthMove introduced ourselves with an invitation to critique. We have always tried to be as responsive as possible to the logical concerns of others. And we've certainly seen our fair share out on the street.

    Let's hope that they are responsive to the many concerns they are likely to be hearing from people such as us. I'm sure once we've got this better sorted out that we can approach them in a constructive manner.

    Posted 17 years ago #
30. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Jan,

    I'd bet about half the people in the truth movement at some point in their lives called themselves anarchists and a few still do. Let's leave the bomb-thrower cliche to the 1920s, shall we? Anarchism is used to denote a widespread and varied strand of ideas, from vegan peace punks to quasi-Trotskyists to hyper-libertarians. Most anarchs I've met (and it's been near to a multitude, they may even inhabit this very thread!) would, I expect, agree off the bat that the truther site violates a cardinal principle or two of anarchism: the commercialism probably even more than the endorsement of any candidate in the election. And one thing truther.org definitely is not is violent - it's totally harmless, or perhaps the German word "Verharmlosung" best describes it: harmless-making.

    Posted 17 years ago #
31. johnhenryfaulk
    Member

    First off Hip Design does not equal Anarchy. Period.

    And for only spending $1000.00 on it they did a fantastic job.

    Should it have been run by the 9/11 Board of Directors? Of course not, because there are no 9/11 Board of Directors. Look what so-called Democratic leadership did to Cindy Sheehan right after "they" got what "they" wanted out of her!

    They dropped her like a hooker drops a spent condom.

    Next, an idea cribbed from your own TruthMove "background page."

    http://www.truthmove.org/content/background/

    This website, truther.org, is the creation of a small group of individuals based in San Diego. We do not claim to be the “official Truth Movement site” or to speak authoritatively for anyone else. The site is our vision for what a Truth Movement could look like if it had to appeal to the youth of America. As most of the youth in America have been conditioned to accept the "MTV" look in things, our site tries to connect with them. If you are not part of the multiple "MTV generations" that have spanned America since 1982, then we offer a sincere apology for the look and feel of the tank top t-shirt, as it is actually quite comfortable once you are wearing one.

    We hope to inspire others, young and old, tank-top or turtle-neck, to make their own sites and start their own Truth Movements. While we are happy to participate we DO NOT act as leaders, the wider Truth Movement cannot be owned or controlled by any individual or group of people who think they know better.

    We have always been youthfully analytical and fiercely individual—always on the lookout for forces trying to tell us how to think or what to care about. A dedication to true, and fashionable nonconformity has given us a particularly independent perspective on the larger idea in reaching the culture of youth.

    Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE (except Uncle Fetz), keep on keeping on.

    jhf

    Posted 17 years ago #
32. giveback
    

    Can the 9/11 Truth movement can be successful without paradigm shift? Not only that, but can it actually thrive in the current paradigm? Can the willing and focused use of the conventions of the fashion world, reality television, MTV, etc. do the trick? Is this how we relate our message, a kind of "If we build it with those conventions, those who adopt those conventions will adopt us."

    In this vein, we could do cheerleaders for truth, as well as homecoming, hazing, American Idol, pimp my ride, etc. for truth. We could lobby Britney Spears until we drop. Let's say she actually went 9/11 Truth, what do you figure would happen (check the reaction to her simple baldness)?

    I could be wrong, as I've considered that the conventions and distractions of the current paradigm, with its elimination reality shows as the highlight, really capitalized off the official mythology of 9/11, in all its force fed fear and loathing, and the fear and loathing it continues to inspire. Also, there is very little cultural engagement with the Iraq War, mostly because of the lack of a draft. Instead we have MTV, etc. which functions as the USO for those who aren't in the military and only care to avoid any mention of war, or any other overwhelming or unsettling topic, unless maybe it's saturated with humor or comic book displays of violence. Or any topic which demands an attention span, such as the topic of 9/11 Truth.

    Basically, will adopting the tools of distraction serve to promote 9/11 Truth, a movement that has been challenged at best by our grand cultural need for distraction?

    Posted 17 years ago #
33. jan
    Member

    Thanks for the feedback Nick. I respectfully request that my comments not be misinterpreted as anything other than concern about public relations. (note: none of my comments have been critical of the truther.org intentions.)

    The first comment of concern was my perception of an anarchist "design style" and the second comment relating to general public relations. New smiling face photos have recently been added, and I will withdraw my opinion that the site presents a clear anarchist design style but is also reflective of a counterculture edgy, urban design.

    To be clear: My main concern is the site marketing plan uses sex to sell 9-11 t-shirts that solely promote their site without inclusion of a redeeming educational message byline, and how that may impact associations. As well it should, perceptions of crass commercialism of the tragedy of 9-11 will be recognized and strongly rejected by middle America (no matter how pretty the faces) and could have serious backlash. When mid-America turns against us (for whatever emotional resentment reason) will be the time when the real fun starts.

    Will publish details of this elsewhere soon. As with everyone here, I've got many other things that need attention.

    In the near future, after general public perception has been successfully swayed to relegate the 9-11 truth movement to same counterculture stature as anarchists, this will be the time when we are all in REAL trouble. Due to general "public perception" that anarchists are potentially violent, authorities have been able to target anarchists for very aggressive treatment and investigation. (Recall Geraldo Rivero's recent public reference to 9-11 protesters as "a group of anarchists!")/>

    "However, misuse of sex appeal can be costly. Many campaigns deemed offensive have started brand boycotts that affect sales and damage brand reputation." http://ezinearticles.com/?Sex-in-Advertising:-Does...

    Other thoughts surrounding public relations aspects: > http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/651/page/2?re... "Seems to me that a marketing decision should be made to focus on the demographics who have the most likely ability to successfully effect rapid change.

    "The recent 911truth poll indicates that the under 35 crowd has a much higher skepticism rate than those between 35-54. While younger Americans will certainly be in the position to significantly effect change in the future, what real political power do they have currently?

    "In reality, the baby boomer age bracket has both the highest likelihood to be positively influenced (by facts/science) and the political power to effect rapid change. One catch could be that becoming educated, exposing and beginning to repair the damage from 9/11 is a huge responsibility of this generation.

    Regarding Diane's comments on creating a 'left' wing of the 911 movement...

    I would not be interested in joining a 'right' 911 truth organization any more than I would be in joining a 'left' 911 truth organization. I have many beloved family and friends who 'lean right' and also family and friends who 'lean left'. The repercussions to America surrounding 9/11 are issues that transcends all others.

    At this critical point in time in America's history, political labels are a method used to further divide Americans towards each other and give misguided energy to a citizen's illusion of having a right/left domestic enemy. If Americans are ever able to cross party lines and start working together for the very survival of the United States, one immediate result would be that current influences in the system would not survive."

    Jan Hoyer/>

    http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/51/Virtual_Addic... I used to feel that it was strange that artists are self-anointed. Now I realize it could not be any other way, because, above all, art is a view of life itself: it cannot be given by others nor taken away by dealers or marketing men. The real artists are always working for nothing because they don’t see their essential role in society as being simply the exchange of goods. The real artists turn up first in the anti-war demonstrations, not because they lack patriotism, but because they revere life.

    Milton Glaser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Glaser

    Posted 17 years ago #
34. casseia
    Member

    Casseia, we're not wishing they fail, or calling them agents, or saying they are stupid. We are critiquing specific decisions made in the creation of this website. We don't assume their incompetence. We therefore are holding them accountable for these decisions by being openly critical. If this had been an invitation to look at a beta version for comment I think everyone here would have approached this in a different manner. But they made their choices, and now we are formulating a response.

    My comments were made in the hopes of a deeper critique emerging -- because I did assume that something more profound than a wish that they would fail or a desire to call them agents was at work. I don't think it's adequate to call the design "anarchist" based on design issues and then say that because they have "added smiling faces" that is no longer true. WTF? I don't think it is adequate to continue discussing an issue of "using sex to sell" when I have indicated that most if not all of the women represented are members of the group -- they are using images of themselves on their own website. I expected more awareness of critical theory from the people here and that's why I entered the discussion here.

    Posted 17 years ago #
35. giveback
    

    casseia:

    You could get very frustrated by trying to provoke deeper comments in others, or you could focus on the the depth of your own comments and impart that to us. Being enraged by what you deem as shallow is promoting shallowness itself.

    The adequacy of the "using sex to sell" issue remains open, whether or not you have stated your definite viewpoint.

    You have evidenced a consistent use of attempted belittlement which runs contrary to the hope for civil discourse in the overall 9/11 Truth campaign.

    Posted 17 years ago #
36. casseia
    Member

    I really disagree that I have. I'm not belittling anyone and in fact was expressing my opinion that some people on this forum could very well be expected to provide a deeper level of analysis. This is not an emotional matter of frustration and the connotations of "provoke" make it a unnecessarily "provocative" choice of words. This is an opportunity for those of us whose expertise is more in the realm of the humanities to make a meaningful contribution to 9/11 discourse and I take it seriously.

    To take as one example, before I let this drop for now, "using sex to sell" as an issue does not in a meaningful way "remain open" on the level of critique without addressing criticisms of it. That's the same as "Well, it's just my opinion" used as an argument.

    In any event, giveback, you seem to have very strong opinions about acceptable discourse at this site. You are an administrator and I have no desire to "cross you" or make your job more difficult, so I will look elsewhere for a discussion of this issue.

    Posted 17 years ago #
37. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Johnhenryfaulke:

    Should it have been run by the 9/11 Board of Directors? Of course not, because there are no 9/11 Board of Directors.

    As nobody suggested this, it is a strawman argument.

    We do not claim to be the “official Truth Movement site” or to speak authoritatively for anyone else.

    Also a strawman - people here are criticizing Truther, not saying it makes any such claims.

    Though it comes close...

    Truther: "If you feel that you have the time, energy and dedication to help with the 9/11 truth movement in more substantial ways, please visit super truthers to learn more and possibly sign up..."

    Supertruthers page: "As an enrolled and approved super truther you'll have greater input and responsibilites than a normal truther would."

    back to johnhenry - by the way, have you been here before?

    The site is our vision for what a Truth Movement could look like if it had to appeal to the youth of America.

    Luckily "youth" is not the unified demographic you imagine, and not all youth goes for this appeal or for any other on the basis of its style.

    we offer a sincere apology for the look and feel of the tank top t-shirt, as it is actually quite comfortable once you are wearing one.

    Strawman. People here are criticizing the use of breast shots to sell a t-shirt that exploits 9/11, on a site that doesn't even say who gets the money (except a dollar for FealGood).

    While we are happy to participate we DO NOT act as leaders, the wider Truth Movement cannot be owned or controlled by any individual or group of people who think they know better.

    Belied by the "super truther" nonsense.

    We have always been youthfully analytical and fiercely individual—always on the lookout for forces trying to tell us how to think or what to care about.

    Now here's you doing their editorial for them. Why not sign up?

    A dedication to true, and fashionable nonconformity has given us a particularly independent perspective on the larger idea in reaching the culture of youth.

    Nonconformity: "I'm a Truther, I got the t-shirt, now I'm cool, I'm a Supertruther!"

    Love it. Like the mob in "Life of Brian":

    "WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!"

    Posted 17 years ago #
38. johnhenryfaulk
    Member

    Neat Nicholas. You win.

    Guess you missed the irony.

    http://www.truthmove.org/content/background/

    Posted 17 years ago #
39. Victronix
    Member

    We have always been youthfully analytical

    It's funny how when you add the word "youthfully" it sounds really fake, while the original, "We have always been analytical" is just a description. No one describes themselves as "youthful" when they really are.

    Posted 17 years ago #
40. giveback
    

    casseia:

    There is not much more belittling than the sentiment "I expected better from you". It is a sentiment prominently used in relationships where there is an understood power imbalance, such as parent/child, boss/subordinate. It appears that others in this thread were not reflecting some of your key points, almost to the point of not listening. Suddenly the "I expected better from you" sentiment appeared, and this sentiment of your roughly and rapidly transformed into "your ventures in this subject are clearly not adequate and should not continue".

    A question that I'm curious about: is my reference to the use of belittlement essentially belittling as well? I don't believe only I could say this is true or not. Do I seem to expect better from those who exhibit terms and methods of belittlement?

    Posted 17 years ago #
41. NicholasLevis
    Member

    truthmod:

    What happened to "this thread sucks"?

    Posted 17 years ago #
42. truthmod
    Administrator

    I deleted it and started writing a more thoughtful response. It will be posted sometime soon. It does suck though.

    Posted 17 years ago #
43. giveback
    

    This thread can be translated into:

    As a truth movement, should we work for the truth or have the truth work for us? How do accomplish one without diluting the other?

    Posted 17 years ago #
44. truthmod
    Administrator

    I see a few interesting points in this thread, but for the most part, it seems like this conversation isn't going anywhere.

    1. There are supposed "critical" people in the movement, and then there are people who are supposedly more "lenient" or "positive," but these people really get critical when the critical people start making their critiques. They say "can't you be more supportive?" or "you're just nitpicking" or "you're just jealous."

    2. TruthMove and many of the people on our board are seen as "the critical ones."

    3. Co-opting the manipulative techniques of branding and advertising strips us of legitimacy and self-respect. Try branding paradigm shift or "thinking for yourself." The only real way to do it is through intense honesty and respect, not through tank tops and young bodies.

    4. Many people want to go half-way with the truth movement. They don't want revolutionary change in society or in their own consciousness. They want to keep their ipods and their hollywood movies and their American Apparel. They think Ron Paul can help them feel good about being an American consumer again.

    5. If you're talking about making the truth movement "cool" so that it will catch on, please don't use the existing codes of mainstream "cool;" be genuine and honest and full of compassion (but of course, none of that is cool).

    6. The youth wing of the truth movement (as it has unfolded) has not been a positive development. If you get people involved through manipulation/sensationalism/image and celebrity and sex, they're likely to end up screaming "NWO SCUM RON PAUL 2008."

    Posted 17 years ago #

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