This guy Andrew Lowe Watson that some people might know here used to be someone who made a bit of sense on 911blogger, but he went completely disinfo for some reason and was rightly banned from the site. Anyway he made a video to voice his decent at being banned, I almost died laughing while watching this, check it out;
TruthMove Forum » TruthMove Main Forum
Andrew Lowe Watson + Disinformation Discussion (47 posts)
-
Posted 17 years ago #
-
Pretty embarassing stuff.
Its funny because it never occurred to me that Andrew was an older person. His posts always seemed so adolescent and full of misplaced rightious indignation that i always just assumed that he was some kid.
is it believable that someone could be this stupid? i always need to balk at reflexively accusing someone of being disinformation/cointelpro because it lowers us to their level and smacks of paranoia. but - it is also hard to believe that so many of the 'activists' coming from this same camp all utilize the same modus operendai (spelling?).
anyway - here is a 30 minute sneak preview of my 2 hour film Disinformation in the Information Age:
Posted 17 years ago # -
Who knows if that even is Andrew Lowe Watson or who the hell those usernames listed at the end really are.
By the way, I went by the weekly St. Marks meeting tonight for Ralph Schoenmann and was not surprised to find blatantly anti-semitic literature being distributed. The same piece (brought by "Scott Summers") also promoted Nico, Judy Woods, bsregistration, Siegel, Fetzer, and all the rest. Maybe I'll make a scan of it...
Posted 17 years ago # -
Yes, please scan and post with comments.
In talking to people from the other local organizations it seems that Les is viewed as marginal. He hasn't changed his tune one iota in the past two years. Have we seen http://nyc911initiative.org/ ? His latest version of the same old thing. Notice an obvious grammatical error in each of the first two paragraphs. Classic Les.
Or then there was Les on MNN the other day. http://youtube.com/watch?v=eXmwP5RWy8A You might notice that his name is mis-spelled in the YouTube title, and also in the intro credits to the video. Also classic Les. He is asked first about his background, and gives his usual canned response.
Or Peggy Carter's awkward post to 911Blogger of too many images from the first action Les has participated in for some time. http://www.911blogger.com/node/9567 The post got totally trashed in rating and comments.
Now, once again, we find that there were references to hate on the table at St. Mark's. And once again, it was a Ralph Schoenmann meeting. And once again it was someone from the outside who had to come in and point this out to everyone who should have noticed themselves.
I see no reason why you shouldn't post this to the forum with candid comments about how you found it, and some connection to the Criminal Politics issue. We really gave Les an easy ride on that thread. And Frank as well. But this is due cause to respond in a direct way. We are certainly the only people who would bring light to this issue.
BTW, Dem and John, its "dissent" and "modus operandi" :)
Posted 17 years ago # -
I've been contacted by someone who is getting death threats.
A simple review of 911Rsearchers.com's homepage today will make it pretty obvious who is being threatened. He is located in NYC so i will yet again be approaching my attorneys on this problem and yet again filing another legal complaint with the police. i am flabergasted at how ineffectual our legal system is.
meanwhile, a mass email was sent out by Nico Haupt to a very large distribution list - including many well-known people - containing a photo that is so obscene that i cannot even describe here what the photo contained. it is one of the most sickening photos of extreme depravity that i have ever seen. imagine the worst POSSIBLE photo - and you would probably be very close to guessing its content.
The distribution of the photo was a response to someone who was requesting that they be removed from his email list.
now - this MUST be illegal. the 1st amendment does not allow for the unsolicited distribution of extremely obscene material to people who are simply requesting they be removed from an email list. this is harassment of the worst kind.
Posted 17 years ago # -
we enjoyed the sneak preview . . . thanks. I hope you'll include an excerpt from the Judy Wood video with Greg Jenkins?
There's the cointelpro style disruptors and then there are the people who promote lunacy but appear to be functional. I think the connection between them that you make is good.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Oh yes. Greg worked with me to ensure that i got hold of a high-resolution copy of his interview.
There is another 90 minutes of my film already assembled - but it is a bit of an editing mess that i need to resolve. so for now it sits in the can.
i spend quite a lot of time on Dr Fetzer since he has a clear background in science and has written papers on the nature of disinformation. and appears on nation TV claiming to represent this moevement.
i look at his JFK involvement and how similar his claims were to TVFakery. It even included advocating a very Nico-like raving lunatic (White) who was known for disrupting events and making wild absurdist claims. this all leads very naturally into an examination of Woods.
question - i had a strongly worded debate with another researcher (Nicholas Levis) who feels strongly that i should take on Loose Change as well. while i agree whole-heartedly with Levis' assessment regarding Loose Change, i am somewhat of coward - feeling that i will alienate my base by taking on this sacred cow. on the other hand - it is for this reason that Loose Change could be set up to do the most damage to this movement IF their next film pulls the media into their world of plane-switches and Pentagon nonsense.
Posted 17 years ago # -
I think you can take on LC if you do it the right way. A lot of it comes down to that, how you do it. Some people will go nuts no matter what you put out on LC - because the no-plane memes are the most important asset for the disinfo agenda - but if you mix praise with critical evaluation, you could do it. The flyer I created that included the good & the bad drove the strong advocates nuts, but was welcomed and appreciated by average people. One thing you can use is that the filmmakers admitted they made mistakes.
My personal feeling is that LC may have been an experiment in a way - yes it put out hoaxes and likely continues to make some of the best and most needed people reject us for those, yet anyone who is a filmmaker knows how difficult any grassroots effort would have been to get that amt of info out as far as that thing did. Can the good outweigh the bad? We don't know. So I maintain the hope that there will be a certain amt of blowback that they couldn't have anticipated, i.e., intelligent people being made aware of the questions via that film while being able to see through the hoaxes. That may be a fantasy.
I'd say the most obvious negative outcome of LC (aside from cementing the Pentagon no plane meme) was the no plane/plane swap in Penn meme - that idea was basically created by Nico/Woody Box, for the most part, and got almost zero traction before this film. I saw several East Coast 911truth organizations advocating that claim and called them on it.
Fetzer promotes White's Pentagon analysis also, fyi.
Also, I think Arabesque did an excellent little piece that exposes the issue of Fetzer's supposed understanding of disinfo and the absurdity of his actual role in engaging in it -
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/Disinfo...
Another important point about Fetzer is the numbers of scholars who walked away from represent us, when in reality they do not -
http://stj911.org/faq.html#quest7
Of the 60% who responded to a request for which scholars group they would like to be involved with, over 160 people voted to join the new group while only 10 people out of 226 voted to stay with Fetzer's group alone (not a "both" vote, of which there were 33). Yet he was the one in control of everything . . . this is how they work. They make a loud loud bark but represent almost no one they claim to.
But the important role is then played by those who endlessly make excuses for disinfo promoters, to make it seem that they have the same intent as everyone else, but only have made some mistakes.
I do think it would be useful to touch on Big Tent . . . that has gained some momentum as a bad thing in recent years, despite the ongoing blockbuster conferences.
Looking forward to more!
Posted 17 years ago # -
Glad you enjoyed my video, DBLS, and yes, truthmod, I am a real person. I don't need to hide behind a username but it is getting to the point when I get more hits on Google from my 9/11 activism than from my professional work as a composer. How many on 911blogger use their real name? Of course it could be that I have nothing to fear as I am on the payroll of MI5. You never know with these conspiracy nuts. Adolescent, John? I was as passionate at 17 as I am now about fraud, cover-up and murder. I just see it in more places than you do. Good day, sir.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Nice to have you on the board AndrewLW :) We have a low tolerance here for what we consider to be dis or misinformation, but if you are respectful and reasonable you are as welcome as anyone else.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Andrew - certainly if you are legitimately interesed in a serious dialogue on the subjects you promote, you cannot fall back on simply accusing WITNESSES of being liars akin to being complic in mass murder.
unfortunately, this appears to be the tactic of those you actively promote. witnesses are harassed and openly accused of being al qaeda agents, and other such nonsense.
One of the researchers you promote has referred to me as a "dangerous lunatic" who may be planning "violence". He has claimed i am a member of al qaeda.
can you show us any evidence of this? can you demonstate for us how accusing witnesses of being "Dangerous lunatiics" is appropriate by any stretch of the imagination?
thousands of people saw the planes on 9/11 - including hundreds of common-joe folk whose stories of that day are duly recorded and documented in myriad videos and written oral histories.
if you were a New Yorker you would know that hundreds of people stood at water's edge in Brooklyn Heights after the first plane struck with their eyes trained on the Manhattan skyline. My cousin Linda was one of those people. They all saw the 2nd plane strike. everyone in NYC knows people who witnessed the planes.
if you were a New Yorker you would know that hundreds of people watched from New Jersey also with an unobstructed view of Manhattan after the 1st plane struck - and witnessed the second plane slowly approach and strike the tower.
if you were a New Yorker you would know dozens of people, all of whom have friends and family, who have tales to tell of that day. everyone in new york knows someone who knows someone who was there and witnessed the planes that day.
if you were a New Yorker you would know that hundreds of emergency responders were onsite at the WTC that day - many of whom have documented their experiences in the many Oral Histories that are documented and available online - documenting the direct eyewitness accounts of the many many many who saw planes that day.
if you were a New Yorker you would perhaps know someone, or be related to someone, who saw planes on that day and is now dying of lung disease. these are the people you call 'actors' and 'liars' and spew bile towards.
if you had any humanity at all you would tread very carefully before accusing these people of being liars. but you are not. the people whose "research" you advocate regularly attack and smear witnesses - accusing them of being CRIMINALS and LIARS.
have you no shame? the associates you promote regularly harass and threaten people. would you like examples?
you wonder why people return the hostility that your group is projecting into this community?
no planes?
You advocate and contribute to a wesbite - 911researchers.com - that regularly posts videos that use images of excriment and feces and swastikas juxtaposed against images of the WTC towers burning? Would you like a link?
This is what you promote? How do you defend this to people who lost loved ones on that day? forget opinions and theories. have you ever heard of common decency?
Posted 17 years ago # -
from blogger:
Submitted by Andrew Lowe Watson on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 12:19pm
"If anyone seriously thinks i am an agent i suggest they contact any of the staff at www.nineeleven.co.uk . Ask Ian Crane, Ian neal, Xmasdale , Andrew johnson or David Shayler and Annie Machon - oh I forget you think he is a plant too. Really this is pathetic." http://www.911blogger.com/node/4664
nineeleven.co.uk's media selection on the front page -
• An introduction to 911 by David Shayler
David Shayler introduces 911 Truth Bristol's Face the Facts and explains why 911 is of vital importance today.
• More from David Shayler
Ex-MI5 Counterintelligence Officer David Shayler concludes the evidence presented in the film Face the Facts and give his personal views on the current geo-political climate.
• 911 Eyewitness
Internet webcasting pioneer Richard A Siegel, of OnlineTV fame, captured both of the World Trade Towers collapsing and a lot more. See the raw footage and listen to Rick's eyewitness testimony of the daring helicopter rescue on the roof of the south tower, WTC2, only moments before it collapsed into "a pile of dust." For the first time, see and hear the massive explosions at the base of the towers causing clouds of dust to rise up from street level before each tower fell. http://www.911eyewitness.com
• 9/11 Whistleblower Richard Grove
Above link as presented on the Maria Heller Show. "The recent interview with Trevor Carey (specifically) contains some great info, all of the interviews contain explanations of my original “transmission†as well as new information further detailing the more prolific parts of 9-11." See: The Trevor Carey Show : 6-26-2006 http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/
Posted 17 years ago # -
Please, John, calm down!
Firstly, I have never accused you of being a member of Al Quaeda. I have certainly never advocated violence against another 9/11 campaigner, and if you remember it was Jon Gold who I quoted once in an unwise moment saying he wanted to see Nico hang with Bush. I'm sure he regrets that remark, but I only included it to show an example of double standards. Also, I am no more answerable for what others, whom I may call friends or colleagues , have written or will write on 911 researchers than you are for some of the stuff that gets onto 911blogger, which I am sure you don't agree with 100%. It's called a debating forum. I admit there is junk on researchers as well as valuable stuff. The big difference with the two forums is that 911blogger only allows those who agree with the consensus 911 view to post blogs, and eventually if they get enough minus votes, they get banned, as happened with Killtown and myself.
I could talk for pages about why I think the videos and photos of planes are fake. To give only one example, the angle of approach of the South Tower hit varies widely and dramatically in the many videos, from a sustained level approach in the Brooklyn Bridge and Park Foreman shots to a sudden plunging steep descent in the Rocerny and several others. All are viewable on Killtown's excellent site at http://killtown.911review.org/2nd-hit.html. I won't convince you overnight, and it took me a long time to 'see the light' but to my knowledge no-one has gone back to believing in planes after they see the psyops for what it is. And I DO think people saw a plane - the one that is captured in many videos and photos flying past the South Tower just after the impact. Isn't it odd that there is no record of this plane or its flight?
I could tell you of research that exists that strongly points to the passenger lists being a mixture of people already dead, yet to die at a later date,still living and, in some cases wholly fictitious. Call this disinfo or cointelpro by all means, but I would be more impressed if you could prove it to be wrong.
Nobody has succesfully explained the 'nose-out' seen on the Good Day Video, a freak that is on no other film and appears to show a good 1/3 of the aircraft emerging totally intact for a split second before being blacked out.
And so on, and so on, until you too silence my musings as I suspect you will.
What is your point, Victronix? Have you heard David Shayler talk, live? I would trust him with my life. The man has real passion and conviction. Maybe I'm wrong. We can only go by our gut instincts.
Thanks for listening.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Please also see my post here
Posted 17 years ago # -
Watched the video!?!
ALW quotes several angry posts from 911blogger related to him or 'no planes' research, including those by Dem, John A, Jon Gold, and Casseia. I found the end credits very telling. Here's the first few names listed:
Nico Haupt, Webfairy, Killtown, BSregistration, Gerard Holmgren, Judy Wood, Morgan Reynolds, Jim Fetzer, Peggy Carter, Rick Siegel, CB Brooklyn,... A who's who of the 'no plane' crowd.
ALW, have you seen our disinfo page?
http://www.truthmove.org/content/disinformation/
Or what about this opinion piece from 911reseachers.com in which John A, and TruthMove are characterized as, "extreme 'spook assets', 'careerists', 'limited hangout frauds' or Orwellianized '"chicken" activists'?
http://www.911researchers.com/node/212
As TruthMod stated, you are as free as anyone to post here, providing you abide by the forum guidelines. Some of the comments that you quoted in the video we would discourage people from posting here. We'd prefer if people only used 'fuck' as a adjective to connote urgency or frustration. 'Fucking ridiculous', 'Fucking awesome', if at all. But we will be weary of people using the word as a verb.
As our focus is more broad than 9/11 truth, we are committed to promoting only what we consider the most well founded evidence of that available. Therefore, according to the guidelines, 'no planes' research should not be posted as it is off topic to this forum. We do however discuss the impact of this research on the movement.
All that said, I like to remember that people like you and I might have a friendly conversation about so many other things. This 9/11 truth movement is some really serious business. I can tell you that I think you are wrong, and we either debate, or agree to disagree. That's simply a logical process, and I generally try to leave my personal feelings out of it as best I can.
Posted 17 years ago # -
"What is your point, Victronix? Have you heard David Shayler talk, live? I would trust him with my life. The man has real passion and conviction. Maybe I'm wrong. We can only go by our gut instincts."
Andrew, did Hitler have "real passion and conviction" in his speeches? Doesn’t mean he was genuine or for the good AT ALL! But hey you think "no planes hit the Towers" so I guess your skills of discernment are slightly in question.
Shayler is a very suspect individual;
"Yes, I believe no planes were involved in 9/11... The only explanation is that they were missiles surrounded by holograms made to look like planes... Watch the footage frame by frame and you will see a cigar-shaped missile hitting the World Trade Center... I know it sounds weird, but this is what I believe." - David Shayler http://www.newstatesman.com/200609110028
Shayler on Sky News talking about "No planes" hitting the Towers; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLEDN5-KWFE
Shayler on mainstream national primetime UK radio talking about "No planes" hitting the Towers; http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?cat...199&#...
Video of Shayler talking about "Holograms hitting the Towers", "Aliens creating mankind" and other such ridicule inviting garbage; http://youtube.com/watch?v=i-87m0TqrQM
Ponder this quote;
“The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.†- Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher (1844 - 1900)
Posted 17 years ago # -
Truthmod,
I appreciate that this is your forum and that the rules of the forum preclude discussion of 'no-plane' evidence. Therefore I will not post any.
My argument with 911blogger was more with the fact that they say in their rules that they do not allow personal attacks on other members, and yet I was attacked repeatedly for giving my support to Judy Wood, James Fetzer and Nico Haupt.
You may be aware that Fetzer is no longer popular even with the 911researchers crowd because of his fence-sitting on tv fakery in the past and his support for 911 Mysteries' misuse of Rick Siegel's original footage of the WTC destructions.
DBLS, I was having a philosophical argument last night with a good friend who believes, bless her, that it is 'evil' to kill anything ( we were discussing spiders and flies, of which we get many out in the countryside where we live). Her argument then turned to whether we as human had any more right to life than a fly. I said yes I did think human life was more valuable, she said,''what right have I to say my life is more important than a fly's?" I pointed out that one human has the power, theorectically to save the planet, by discovering a vaccine like Pasteur or campaigning for peace like Gandhi or brokering arms reductions like Gorbachov or whatever. What I am coming to is that, at the end of the day, we can only go by our instincts, combined with what intelligence we have been granted. Neither of us is a bad person. I believe you are sincere but wrong. I only ask the same respect from you and your friends at 911blogger.
I do not approve of the shock tactics mentioned by John in his post. That is not to say that I will accuse those who do those things of being agents, far from it. I do not know, any more than you do, who is working professionally as a 'plant'. I can only guess. I would have thought I was a very unlikely candidate as my profile is so transparent and I have a professional life in music that would be very damaged by such allegations being proved to be true. But if you want to believe it, you are free to do so. For that matter I could be a reptile, or a member of the illuminati, as I am like GWB distantly related to the British royal family. You believe what you want. I don't think Dave Shayler is a fake. That is a gut reaction. My gut reaction to Hitler is revulsion.
Posted 17 years ago # -
"I don't think Dave Shayler is a fake. That is a gut reaction. My gut reaction to Hitler is revulsion."
Yes, but how revolted were all those good Germans who became hysterical and euphoric at the mere sound of his ravings? Alex Jones gets quite fired up when he speaks publicly the difference is I don't base my opinion of him on his public speaking, I base my opinion of AJ on the solid work he's done (even if I find some of it a bit too tabloid and sensationalistic) and the overall effect he's had. AJ's fruits are good, Shayler's fruits are bad. Shayler did a decent job narrating that new film debunking the BBC's "Conspiracy Files" program, but all that's rendered worthless by the clown telling millions that 9/11 Truth is about "Holograms" hitting the Towers. Shayler has zero credibility with me because he has overtly tried to create zero credibility for 9/11 Truth at almost every recent opportunity he's had.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Andrew - you have a lot of nerve criticizing 911Blogger for censorship when 911Researchers regularly removes posts and memberships of ANYONE who expresses an OPINION that differs with the no-planes crowd. 911Researchers is NOT an open forum - yet you continue to bash 911Blogger for banning known disruptors. people get banned from 911Blogger for DISRUPTING - not voicing their opinions.
you say you do not support the 'shock' techniques of those very same people YOU promote in YOUR film. that's rich. you cry us all a river over being banned at Blogger while advocating the work of "Fred" who has openly called for ME to be ARRESTED and TORTURED.
tell us again what a reasonable man you are. tell us again how you debate in 'good faith' and stand for truth and justice.
Take a look at 911Researchers today. They are DESTROYING the reputation of Gary Welz. They are misquoting him and accusing him of all sorts of crimes.
Gary tells me that he fears for the safety of his family.
And now you come HERE and claim to be some sort of victim?
and - note - you very conveniently ignored all my points regarding the witnesses on 9/11. that would actually require defending the claims you are foisting on the public to destroy this movement.
Posted 17 years ago # -
John,
Just finished watching the sample of your film so far--looks good.
When you put together all of the pieces, it really strongly does appear to be a COINTELPRO movement. Anyone who has researched the disinformation going around can see all of the evidence coming together, and see that it is deliberate. I don't know how many pieces of evidence I've gotten (from even private emails) with people in the movement that show how real this is. I've even had the good fortune of being called a "Dr. Jones clone, Plane Hugger," and all these other names from the disinfo master himself--Ewing2001. If they are paying attention to you, it must mean you are doing good work.
Andrew's video was just hilarious... I even got referenced in the first part. Luckily I'm usually one of the kinder posters on 911blogger, so no embarrassing quotes from me.
Posted 17 years ago # -
You seem to have forgotten that I was banned from 911blogger. You can't be much more censored than that. No, I was appalled when Rick banned CB Brooklyn this week from 911researchers. He is acting like the sites he says he dislikes. I hope he changes his mind.
Posted 17 years ago # -
Arabesque - we meet again. I too am kind to those in need of help.
I shall let you into a secret. I am part of a very tightly controlled ring of disinformation-spinning operatives run by the CIA. I receive monthly payments into a special bank account that bears the name of a dead relative of mine. It is untraceable. I do not need to work and spend all day surfing the net , making videos and destroying the 911Truth movement. I also disrupt meetings by heckling through a megaphone and I have been banned by my local church for posting pictures of horse shit and swastikas. I create crop circles. I dress up as an alien...
Posted 17 years ago # -
AndrewLW--
Do you think disinformation agents exist within the movement? If so, who are your suspects?
Why do you support Nico Haupt, he is the one who actually did this:
I have been banned by my local church for posting pictures of horse shit and swastikas.
You certainly seem to be a "real" person though. Strange how many people in the movement have a background in music...
http://www.andrewlowe-watson.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lowe_Watson
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3121611.s...
God made me gay. When I was desperately lonely I prayed for someone to love. So did my partner. Eight years later, we are happier than we have ever been and closer to God. Countless Christians, saints and martyrs among them, have been and are gay. Maybe even Jesus himself. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Do these gay-bashers know the teachings of our Lord, who chose "sinners" among his friends. Jesus was no Christian! Andrew Lowe-Watson, Norwich, England
Posted 17 years ago # -
Moderator Response
ALW, nowhere in your video, or comments here have you indicated the reason you were given by the moderators of 911blogger for having been banned. I suppose we could contact them and ask. Your video is inherently biased as you present the response of the 911blogger moderators and some of the people here without representing your comments upon which they are based.
Please respond to the above concern.
Posted 17 years ago # -
And my personal comments
ALW, I always start off trusting people, until they give me a reason not to. That opinion includes people's representation of themselves on the internet. It seems that you represent those who by ignorance or by design serve to undermine the credibility of the 9/11 truth movement. It matters little whether you are conscious of this negative intent, as the effect is what we are looking at here.
'No-planes' researchers have proven to be unscientific in their approach. They are either purely illogical, or impervious to logical criticism.
Big statement here: The 9/11 truth movement has progressed to this point based on the scientific and legal implications of documented facts.
Non-science is not a part of the 9/11 truth movement. Period. Apples and oranges. If its not logical, it goes somewhere else. And TruthMove will be defending this line in the sand quite vigorously. The days of the 'big tent' are over. 9/11 truth does not include fallacy or hate.
911researchers.com does not in any way represent the 9/11 truth movement.
Posted 17 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.