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Richard Andrew Grove Advocates Plane Swapping to Reporters (5 posts)

  1. Victronix
    Member

    Richard Andrew Grove Advocates Plane Swapping to Reporters

    Richard Andrew Grove has now exposed himself as a plane swapping advocate . . . I'd seen it buried in his writings before, but now he's out in the open about it.

    This is important because a number of sites promote him by linking to him (www.8thestate.com) and describing him as a "corporate whistleblower." What good is any corporate whistleblower who insists that real commercial jets didn't hit the WTC . . . with no evidence? The plane swapping theories at the WTC have no evidence, and the idea that Flight 93 landed in Cleveland and passengers were deboarded to a NASA facility similarly is based only a single news story.

    Both of these claims then have to rely on the idea that commercial jets never were in Penn or NYC, but that those planes were drones or something else. It's one thing to research it or write on forums about it, but another to advocate plane swapping to reporters in mainstream media.

    No one in a leadership or public position should ever be talking to reporters about plane swapping.


    http://www.total911.info/2007/02/911-whistleblower...

    On Saturday's edition of "Truth Group Radio" on the Revere Radio Network, co-host Richard Andrew Grove, a 9/11 corporate whistleblower, spoke about his eyewitness experience in southern Manhattan on 9/11. About the alleged "American Flight 11" Boeing airliner crashing into the North Tower, Grove said, "I was sitting there in a convertible and I never heard it, and I never saw it."

    In the revereradio piece he specifically says he spoke to a reporter from the Sunday Times in London and asks him, "Why do you think that's Flight 11? Did anyone identify the tail number on that plane? . . . "(42:00) Then he mentions later, "Flight 93 landed at Cleveland and was taken to a NASA facility . . .(43:00)

    Plane Swapping Debunked

    A Critical Review of WTC 'No Plane' Theories
    By Eric Salter
    Version 2
    29 September 2006
    NEW: Update, 8 November 2006
    http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/review.html

    Radar Data

    With the combination of the civilian and military radar recordings from 9/11, either the transponder or primary radar returns from flights 11 and 175 were recorded for the entirety of those flights, according to documents recently released by the NTSB which show both the complete flight path and the altitude profiles of each flight. It doesn't appear that either plane was missed by primary radar for any significant length of time during the flights.

    If the data presented is authentic, two things are clear: The flights started and ended where they were claimed by the official reports, and the altitude profiles show that neither plane was anywhere close to the ground except at takeoff and the termination of flight at Manhattan, which would rule out substitution scenarios involving landing at some other unknown airport along the flight path.

    It is true that the civilian flight controllers lost track of flight 11, but it seems this happened for the following reason: civilian radar apparently did not have full primary radar return coverage, so flight 11 would have disappeared from their scopes (because the transponder was turned off) and would have been difficult to re-identify when it reappeared later without the transponder signals (which broadcast the identity of the flights). But this loss of identification does not support plane swapping. The entirety of the plane's flight path has been plotted with the recorded radar data, eliminating the possibility that the plane deviated from the course described in the official reports.** Whether a plane swap was achieved by two planes coming close together and switching flight paths is something that cannot be discerned from the data available and will always be nothing more than speculation unless someone can get access to the original radar data recordings and demonstrate through expert analysis that the data supports this possibility.**

    Posted 17 years ago #
  2. truthmover
    Administrator

    Another bait and switch?

    I found myself skeptical of this dude when he first appeared on the scene with his slick podcast, saying all the things I wanted to hear him say about relevant facts, and reasonable discussion. I try not to be paranoid, but when people show up out of the blue with a whole professional package, and no past in the movement, I find myself a bit apprehensive.

    In this case, I suppose its possible that the plane swap people got to him, and convinced him it held merit. Or maybe his is doing this to generate more attention. Quantity vs. quality again. Or just maybe this was his intention all along, very much like Eric Williams. Establish a presence in the movement under certain pretenses, and then suddenly change your approach, drawing negative attention to everyone with whom you have an association.

    In neither case is it possible to prove malicious intent. But the outcome is certainly damaging to the movement. And we should be extra skeptical of whistle-blowers who come from within the government. Reynolds is a good example. Or Richard Clarke's book, "Against All Enemies," in which he frames himself as digging up dirt, but is in fact selling a story of CIA frustration with an unresponsive Administration, and simply passing off the blame.

    Thanks for the heads up. This is a good example of the kind of diligence we need to have concerning ourselves with the action of others who promote the movement. As you said, people are free to speculate to their hearts content when doing research, or having a discussion in a forum. But when you are promoting the movement, especially in front of TV cameras, bringing up hypotheses that haven't been well founded in fact is simply unacceptable.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  3. Victronix
    Member

    But this is a site about action, right? So what action can be taken?

    I personally think there need to be campaigns to expose this stuff and put in the open. If a group of people agreed to -- for example -- contact all the websites promoting obvious disinformation advocates (regardless of whether they sincerely believe the things they advocate or not), and alert them to the information and request that they remove their links to it, this could be a significant and meaningful action.

    People's first response is generally the one you had -- "well, maybe someone just got to him," and then they shrug and ignore it (although you didn't, you then went on to explore it more). But when we ignore it, it only grows. Richard Andrew Grove has openly told us that he explained this to the Sunday Times of London. He is giving us a heads up (not intentionally, just the outcome). Should someone contact them and let them know he does not represent the majority of views in the movement? People DID contact Moinbot and told thim that LC does not represent the majority of the movement, and he included that in his second essay (not that he cared!). Should we wait for the next "hit piece" to come out featuring Mr. Grove?

    After the VT 911truth site came out, with it's questions and ballot, and started to get media attention, a bunch of people noticed that a lot of their questions were extremely weak or simply wrong and focusing on no planes . . . they sent out a bunch of emails to do damage control and explain the case against 'no planes' to local officials, local media and to the website contact. Today, things on that site are a lot better! It was a brief but focused action, and it worked. 'No planes' was left out of the media presentations of the questions, links were changed on the site, etc.

    That's action and it can make a difference. It just takes organization and inspiration. We have to get over our aversion to exposing dis or mis-information (generally due to the belligerent blowback one can end up receiving from people like Holmgren or Siegel, etc.) and just act on it when we see it. Shrugging and saying that it doesn't matter won't get us to an investigation.

    A search of "Richard Andrew Grove" turns up 22,900 google hits . . . he's been getting around. At the very least, someone needs to contact him and get him on the record to explain why he would tell the Sunday Times of London that planes were swapped when there is so little evidence for such a claim, if any at all. Why, as someone claiming to be a whistleblower and hence in the "spotlight," would he do this?

    Incidently, he will be featured at Arizona as a "whistleblower."

    One other thing . . .

    It's important to understand that often, someone who is sent to penetrate a group will need to have a gift in hand to gain access (not saying RAG is an agent, just talking theoretically), so often those promoting hoaxes also have real and unique information in the other things they are saying. As my friend Michael Green has told me -- a retired forensic psychologist active in the JFK mvmt -- "I get most of my information from moles and idiots." We shouldn't ignore the rest of what RAG says, since something else in there is likely to be real.

    But we need to expose the problem.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  4. AmTruth
    Member

    Nice research, Victronix. I've been questioning Richard Grove's intentions for some time now.

    I was also really excited to hear the testimony of this intelligent young man who articulated his 31-page transcript very well. But the more I looked into his story – it seemed like it was too good. I tried listening to Grove’s podcast, but it was too weird for me – it sounded like it was like a piece of mind-control propaganda that talked so negatively of (I believe Orwell had some comments on this type of media).

    Anyway, about what we should do about those who are bringing a bad name to 9/11 (possibly disinformation agents): I think we should try to confront and try to make them aware of what they are actually doing for the truth movement. But I also want to raise caution in any effort where one belligerently argues and fights with another in the open. Coming from a Christian’s perspective, I’ve seen so many non-believers get turned off by Christianity because of the fights between Catholics vs. Protestants, Conservative Evangelicals vs. Liberal Mainstream churches, etc. I know it is hard in trying to find the appropriate path to take, considering the true disinformation agents won’t just back down when we nicely tell them to stop. But I hope we that we won’t see the Truth movement plagued with fighting from within.

    By the way, has any of Richard’s Grove’s revealing facts about the NYC firms involved in 9/11 been authenticated?

    Posted 17 years ago #
  5. Victronix
    Member

    By the way, has any of Richard’s Grove’s revealing facts about the NYC firms involved in 9/11 been authenticated?

    I don't know -- it's characteristically buried 3 feet deep in annoying dialog so that keeps anyone from really looking closely. Someone should go through it. It could have real stuff. And then get it out and re-introduce it elsewhere.

    Posted 17 years ago #

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