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Zwicker's 'Left Gatekeepers and Agents of the State' (12 posts)

  1. truthmover
    Administrator

    Zwicker's 'Left Gatekeepers and Agents of the State'

    Infiltration is a topic best discussed with a certain amount of candor. Because it is most often impossible to prove that someone is an 'agent', it is more important to focus on behaviors that serve to undermine our cause. Together we can recognize a set of bahaviors that are not consistant with the general principles of this movement. And we must not be affraid to offer critique on the strategy of our peers. We all get it wrong sometimes. But some people get is wrong a bit too often.

    Rather than naming names, lets talk about best practices. Let's not avoid the fact that there is always a better way to do something. The 9/11 truth movement must continue to grow and adapt to the present.

    Posted 18 years ago #
  2. truthmod
    Administrator

    oilempire is one of the best at disinformation analysis

    personally, it seems to me that it is quite possible that flight 77 hit the pentagon.

    http://www.oilempire.us/bogus.html

    hundreds of people saw a plane hit the pentagon:

    http://www.oilempire.us/eyewitnesses.html

    lessons from the jfk truth movement re: disinformation

    http://www.oilempire.us/jfktruth.html

    Posted 18 years ago #
  3. Keenan
    Blocked

    oilempire is a disinfo site

    truthmod,

    I'm sorry to see that you have apparently fallen for the oilempire disinfo. Their analysis attacking the Pentagon 'no plane' theory is complete nonsense. There is a consensus in the 9/11 truth movement that Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon. The physical evidence, if analysed honestly, simply does not support the official hoax that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. Only a few researchers, who appear to be primarily disinfo agents, are trying to uphold this official government lie.

    Newcomers to the movement who happen upon certain websites, such as Jim Hoffman's 911research.com and 911review.com, or Mark Robanowitz's oilempire.us, are often fooled by the sophisticated methodology of disinfo they employ. In order to gain credibility in the movement, the disinfo agents will offer a limited hangout in which they present themselves as a genuine 9/11 truth researcher, but then do serious harm to the movement by attemtping to divide and discredit good people in the movement. One of the most common tactics is called "badjacketing", which is to smear someone else in the movement as an agent or a fake. In FBI COINTELPRO history, badjacketing was used extensively to destroy many social movements. As Barry Zwicker explained in his lecture, these agents know how to be very convincing. That includes Mark Robaniwitz at oilempire.us embracing permaculture and other things that gives more warm fuzzy feelings to people who then conclude "well, if they support good things like permaculture, then they must be telling the truth!"

    Its important to understand that people like Jim Hoffman and Mark Robanowitz at oilempire.us are not interested in an open and honest debate about what happened at the Pentagon. If they were, then they would not be disparaging the efforts of, and questioning the motives of, those researchers who refuse to ignore the fact that the available evidence is entirely inconsistent with the crash of a jetliner at the Pentagon. It is absulutely inexcuseable for them to automatically accuse others of being disinfo agents who disagree with them. Especially when there are totally valid reasons not to buy the official hoax about the Pentagon attack on 9/11. That's why most of the credible 9/11 researchers, including David Ray Griffen, Webster Tarpley, Mike Ruppert (in those few moments when he is speaking privately and honestly), Steven Jones, Jeff King, and countless others dispute the official Pentagon hoax. At Scholars for 9/11 Truth (st911.org), probably the most credible 9/11 research group in the whole movement, NOBODY believes in the official lie that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

    "What about all those witnesses who saw a big commercial airliner crash into the Pentagon," you ask? Almost all of them can be proven to be agents of the Pentagon, the Bush Administration, the mainstream media, and high political operatives both Democratic and Republican. For an excellent review of the bogus "eye witness" accounts of the Pentagon, check out Dave McGowan's analysis here: http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr68e.html. Also, it is important to keep in mind that any experienced criminal investigator will tell you that physical evidence always outweighs eye witness evidence, especially when there is a discrepency between the two.

    Another important point is that there was lots of eye witnesses who saw multiple aircraft, including what appeared to be a large Boing aircraft that flew towards the Pentagon and then veered off to the left at the last minute just before the attack. This could have been an intentional distraction by the perpetrators to confuse people. And, this could account for at least some of the eye witnesses who claimed to have seen a large commerical aircraft. And, most of the witnesses who say they saw a large commercial aircraft didn't actually see it crash into the Pentagon. I.E. first they saw the plane, then after it disappeared they saw/heard an explosion far away towards the Pentagon a little later.

    Dave McGowan at The Center of an Informed America, probably has the most thorough overall analysis about what happened at the Pentagon and the ensuing disinfo campaign: October 2, 2004 September 11, 2001 Revisited: Act II http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr68.html.

    A little more homework on your part about the evidence of what really happened at the Pentagon can help you to see through the lies and deception being offered at sites such as oiempire.us. I think it is important for all of us in the 9/11 truth movement to identify and call out those who are attempting to do great harm to the movement, because it is a serious threat, as Barry Zwicker explained. I believe that the use of superior logic and intelligence by those of us in the truth movement who are willing to do our homework will prevail and let the truth win out.

    Posted 18 years ago #
  4. truthmover
    Administrator

    Please expand

    Keenan,

    Please include some working links to 9/11 research that you think is not disinformation. What are the sources that you trust? And maybe some reasons why.

    Posted 18 years ago #
  5. truthmod
    Administrator

    re: no plane

    no plane at the pentagon is not a strong point to focus on. we have so much else. it is sensational and easily ridiculed. it is easy to absorb and just as easy to dismiss. why focus on the pentagon when we have so much solid documentary evidence?

    if 9/11 truth is reduced in people's minds to "controlled demolition" and "no plane hit the pentagon," it doesn't become real for them. in order for it to become real, people must be exposed to a wide breadth of the evidence so they can see the strength of the cumulative case for complicity.

    for people who only have a superficial exposure to 9/11 truth, all they usually know about is missiles and the pentagon and the towers being blown up. this is a problem for our movement.

    Posted 18 years ago #
  6. Victronix
    Member

    At Scholars for 9/11 Truth (st911.org), probably the most credible 9/11 research group in the whole movement

    What? You mean Reynolds, Wood, Fetzer and Rick Siegel? These are what you call credible "researchers"? It sounds like you'll embrace any nonsense as long as they advocate the no-plane position. Differing with your positon on the Pentagon doesn't amount to being "disinfo," it amounts to a differing opinion from yours.

    If Hoffman isn't interested in an honest debate then why has he addressed the arguments in so much detail here -

    http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index....

    Posted 17 years ago #
  7. SkepticGuy
    Member

    Some data from a bit more than a year ago:
    The No-757 Theory Is Actually Coordinated Disinformation!
    More
    (oilempire.us is one of the supporting links)

    And what discussion would be complete without the thread from "Catherder" that so often gets us (ATS) in hot-water with "9/11 Truth Movement" people...
    9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon 4,140 posts in over two years.

    What a lot of impassioned supporters of the "no-plane theory" fail to pick up on is that it's entirely possible to: a) feel that a passenger airline struck the pentagon, or b) ignore the entire issue of what hit the pentagon; and still be certain there are deep and terrible conspiracies that orchestrated the events of 9/11.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  8. truthmover
    Administrator

    Please Note: This thread is a year old.

    Keenan was our first troll, but just for a couple of weeks. He hasn't logged on since then.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  9. Victronix
    Member

    I think forum moderation is extremely important. We haven't figured this out yet over at STJ, so we have a handful of people just sit on the forum 24/7 and post stuff that is basically idle chatter and turns real areas of research into "mythology" with deprecating titles given to posts, like "Conspiracy of the International Assassins?" and "9/11 myth created by plants on day of attack?" and "The International Banking Cartel," etc. They aren't things you can delete out of hand, and yet, they clog the entire board all day long and waste people's time. Legitimate scholars will be turned off. Unfortunately, a lot of the active 'scholars' engage them anyway, and keep it going.

    If you have any pointers, let us know. We've been deluged with coping with the membership issue, but that is slowly starting to ebb. Now we can start to refocus on a strategy for the forum again.

    Posted 17 years ago #
  10. SkepticGuy
    Member

    Victronix Wrote:

    If you have any pointers, let us know.
    Who is this question directed to? And are you referring to the site in your profile [www] link?

    Posted 17 years ago #
  11. truthmod
    Administrator

    I think Victronix is referring to stj911.org

    We haven't done that much moderation and we've tried not to censor the trolls and antagonists unless they really get out of hand. My best recommendation is just to ignore the people/posts that are clearly not interested in a reasonable discussion. Of course, if people are being abusive or trying to ruin your board, then they deserve to be banned.

    We've been attacked by Angie, and others but we usually prefer to let these people make themselves look stupid and not encourage them by feeding their anger (banning or censoring)...

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31&...

    Good luck with the Scholars forum...

    Posted 17 years ago #
  12. truthmover
    Administrator

    Moderation

    They aren't things you can delete out of hand, and yet, they clog the entire board all day long and waste people's time. Legitimate scholars will be turned off. Unfortunately, a lot of the active 'scholars' engage them anyway, and keep it going.

    Wow! I can think of so many better things to be doing with your time. Unfortunately it's very difficutlt to maintain an open public forum and enforce any specific level of quality in the posts. You highlight the biggest problem. Posts that basically don't violate any of the forum guidelines and yet really are strategically off topic.

    So maybe we need to take moderation to another level by including forum guidelines that better express the exact intent of the venue, providing greater latitude in editing for topic relevance.

    Honestly, people need to be a bit more prepared for their threads to be deleted. Lax moderation sets up a situation in which posters come to expect that they have found a home for every thought that arises in their head. In order to have a more focused discussion forum, people have to understand that the forum is serving some specific strategic purpose. Its not just a place for 9/11 speculation, but a location for relevant news, logical analysis of the facts, etc...

    When we have someone who keeps posting things that we feel are moderately off topic, we need to contact these people and let them know specifically why they are missing the point. Then, having spelled it out, we have a justification for deleting future threads. The TruthMove forum is highly moderated, but in a relatively friendly way. Setting up certain expectations at the beginning, only those willing to respect the guidelines will be drawn to participate, and in this context, our moderation is merely constructive.

    Some people will inevitably feel slighted by this process. But I would say that they can go to many other forums in which their contribution would be more appropriated. This is a quality vs. quantity issue. Right now the few posters to this forum, are making it a lot more interesting and productive for me than any other forum I frequent. 20 focused people can make a discussion forum an invaluable asset. And the next 300 people can turn that to mush.

    Once again, the more decisive you are, the more friendly you can be about the whole thing. "Pardon me, but I just wanted to remind you about the rules." But first you need a set of rules that address all of your moderations concerns. Ours it a work in progress. Its not going to get shorter.

    Posted 17 years ago #

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