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Drama for Northern CA 9/11 Truth Alliance (21 posts)

1. truthmod
   Administrator

   This all sounds very familiar...

   At least there are some responsible people involved in that organization. Vic Sadot does not sound like one of them...

   http://truthtroubadour.blogspot.com/2015/06/vic-sa...

   Tonight I was expelled from the Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance by an un-announced vote of 5-0-4, which I requested be delayed until the next regular meeting so that everyone could participate in the matter. I was asked to leave the room after a long discussion that claimed that I was obliged to inform the group that Barbara Honegger would be coming to the last meeting. Barbara's film was voted into the 2015 N CA 9/11 Truth Film Festival by a vote of 16-0-1 at that last group meeting on 5-21-15. This was the blowback on me. This is my perspective.

   The 3 issues I raised within the group in the past year were: (1) The Censorship of the entire Pentagon section of the film by Massimo Mazzucco,"September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor". (2) The suppression of Barbara Honegger's then-new 2013 film, "Behind the Smoke Curtain: What Happened at the Pentagon on 9/11, What Didn't, and Why It Matters". (3) The vote to not allow Bonnie Faulkner to have her regular seating at the Grand Lake Theater in 2014, which I felt was based on personal hostility and specious grounds. (3) Shortly before the 2014 film festival, both I and Allan Rees of No Lies Radio asked the group to revisit a seemingly spiteful vote to not allow Bonnie Faulkner to have her normal seating in the lobby of the Grand Lake Theater as in years past. It was ostensibly because she was not doing the MC chores in 2014. Allan and I both advised that this seemed like picking a fight with Bonnie for no good reason. They refused to reconsider their vote to move Bonnie to the sidelines. When the event happened and Bonnie worked things out with Carol Brouillet, thus allowing Bonnie to take her normal table position without a major blow-up, it was Carol who came under attack by Ken Jenkins and Esteban Myers for “over-ruling the vote of the group”. Hey, I worked on the event like a team player in spite of losing on the Faulkner and Honegger votes that year. I came in the night before the event to load in and set up equipment. During the all day festival I ran the zoom lens on the camera for the No Lies Radio live-stream.

   ...

   This move to expel me from the Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance will be spun in terms of ugly character assassination with Ken Jenkins as the victim of a “campaign of hostility”. That seems to work just fine. But it is not the truth. I remain a principled and dedicated multi-issue activist and artist. I reject this attempt of the last year and a half to make these 3 issues into something other than what they are, or what they should have been dealt with as, namely, a debate over these 3 items and how N CA 9/11 Truth Alliance handled them. This is a petty power game. But the 9 people there tonight seem to be fine operating this way. So I will part with dismay and disappointment at this move. Those who participated in this quickie vote to expel a dedicated truth-seeker and truth-teller have made a serious mistake in judgment. Shame on you! If the decision is re-visited, it will not be upon my initiative. So you got your way. But you just lost the kind of friend who is willing to tell you the truth about what is principled conduct, and what is not acceptable conduct, for a 9/11 Truth organization, particularly in the devious manner of dealing with Max Mazzucco, Barbara Honegger, and Bonnie Faulkner. Celebrate your loss!

   Fare thee well, everyone! Fare thee well!

   Vic Sadot

   Posted 9 years ago #
2. truthmod
   Administrator

   Not the first folk-singing 9/11 truth infiltrator or dangerous dupe I've come across.

   Posted 9 years ago #
3. mark
   Member

   I hope the infiltrators can all recognize each other.

   Posted 9 years ago #
4. truthmod
   Administrator

   http://frustratingfraud.blogspot.com/2006/12/barba...

   Perhaps the oddest case in the small but fertile world of government functionary-9/11 Truth crossover is that of Barbara Honegger, a dedicated but elusive and little seen 9/11 warrior with murky roots (apparently military and intelligence). She was allegedly into weird parapsychic stuff, channeling voices of supercomputers from the future and whatnot, [1] before she went to work in the late 1970s for a rising star named Martin Anderson at the Hoover Institute (where he remains as a Senior Fellow). She then followed Anderson to the White House as an assistant to join the Reagan-Bush transition team in 1980. Anderson advised Reagan on everything from foreign intelligence to education, finance, and arms control, probably worked for Bush sr., and during the Clinton Years focused on teaching classes at Stanford (home of the Hoover Institute and where Condi Rice was briefly provost). Anderson was later an advisor to George W. Bush in his 2000 presidential campaign, [2] and eventually became a member of Rumsfeld’s influential Defense Policy Board in 2001. [3]

   Posted 9 years ago #
5. BrianG
   Member

   Ms. Honegger's chapter in the Toronto Hearings book about the Pentagon is highly discrediting to the book.

   She misquotes the expert to whom she ascribed the claim that "temperatures so high and 'concentrated for [such] a long period of time'" turned concrete to "mush". The quote actually reads "very intense, hot concentrated fire for a prolonged period of time." Her gratuitous "[such]" was introduced to cover her excision of "fire".

   She goes on to claim that the ASCE report on the Pentagon damage says that an up-thrust section of the second floor slab "might represent an independent explosion". This language nowhere appears in the ASCE report, but only in the analysis by independent bloggers. The ASCE report simply calls it a "breached slab" and declines to speculate on mechanisms of breaching, though it does provide some pretty interesting pictures.

   Posted 9 years ago #
6. BrianG
   Member

   Ms. Honegger's material in one of Dr. Griffin's books was also discrediting to Griffin. Based on a witness account of bodies in A-ring in the Pentagon she assumed that there was massive damage to A-ring and seems not to have questioned whether people injured in outer rings may have walked to A-ring before expiring or whether their bodies might have been moved to A-ring from the outer rings.

   She also quotes a news report to the effect that there was damage to B-ring apparently without considering the possibility that a telephonic interview the afternoon of 9/11 might have resulted in a phonetic misunderstanding by which the witness actually said there was damage to D-ring.

   She seems to be very susceptible to confirmation bias. She was much impressed when Barrett promoted the story of the artists in the WTC. She seemed to think that the fact that they were artists made them part of the Mossad art-student spy ring, disregarding the fact that these particular artists were Austrians, not Israelis.

   Posted 9 years ago #
7. truthmod
   Administrator

   Any thoughts on Vic Sadot, Brian?

   Posted 9 years ago #
8. BrianG
   Member

   Vic Sadot contacted me soon after he came to the Bay Area. I tried to assist him in repairing his truck but his truck was such a late model that I could not find the parts in the junkyards.

   He had written a song entitled something along the lines of "The Ballad of William Rodriguez" and he listened respectfully while I provided the evidence that Willie's story was a fraud.

   I lost track of him after that, but I did notice that he seemed to be one of the more prolific posters at the sf911truth googlegroup. (I lost not only my administrative privileges but also my posting privileges on the same day.)

   I saw him singing at World Can't Wait protests now and then. One time marching in Golden Gate Park he seemed to be less than appreciative of my efforts to harmonize with his singing. Maybe I'm not a good singer. I used to be, but that was 50 years ago.

   It seemed that in recent years Vic became increasingly militant about the crimes of Israel. I have no idea why he was ejected from the NorCal 9/11 truth alliance. 50 miles is just too far for me to drive for a meeting. I did attend 3 or 4 years ago when Sen. Gravel pitched the group on his ballot initiative proposal. Someone asked him if his efforts to expose the truth would include the possibility that Israel did 9/11. Gravel said something along the lines of "Yes, we'd definitely be going after Israel" and then he looked up at the stony faces all around and tried to backtrack.

   Vic seems like a pretty good guy to me, perhaps misguided. Absent a pay stub I can not call him out as a government agent. but it's likely that any government agent would present himself as a pretty good guy. It seems that it worked for Willie Rodriguez until it didn't.

   Posted 9 years ago #
9. mark
   Member

   It's a shame the brilliance of the Deception Dollars campaign wasn't accompanied by an interest in fact checking.

   It's laughable but sad that a "truth" activist in California (or anywhere) could still push the hoax that Flight 77 supposedly did not crash into the Pentagon.

   --

   www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/PAandAAF77.... The Pentagon Attack and American Airlines Flight 77 by John Judge

   "Hundreds of people saw the plane from windows of nearby buildings, from cars along the nearby highways, and some ducked because it flew over so low. Pentagon employees and construction workers at the site saw the events unfold before their eyes. Hundreds more took part in the clean-up operation and saw the wreckage. It is not difficult to find eyewitnesses to the event in DC. ... "Families of victims and others who work at the airlines, as well as many witnesses I have spoken to, are offended and shocked by these unfounded speculations. Those willing to do a modicum of investigative work here in DC will be quickly disabused of this disinformation. "There are many legitimate unanswered questions about the events of September 11, 2001, its sponsorship, and the official version of events. We benefit from serious research and the issues raised by victim's families seeking accountability. Not the least of these is the apparent lack of standard FAA/NORAD response to these emergency events. Rather than use our time proving and belaboring the obvious, or focusing on areas of total speculation that can only hurt our public credibility, I encourage serious researchers to focus on the historical context of the event, the alleged conspirators, the funding, and the government response or lack of it."

   ---

   www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/notAllCequa...

   Not all conspiracies are created equal by John Judge

   ....

   Not all "conspiracies" are created equal. The government did kill JFK, and they lied about it. That does not mean there was never a Holocaust, or that the world is run by the Illuminati. The blindness of Chomsky and the other left structuralists is that they make the class out to be monolithic and without mechanisms to carry out its will. They fear that if you think there was any reason to kill a president then you don't understand how capitalism works, and that you will be filled with false hope about the Kennedy clan, who were only more of the same old ruling class. They can't let themselves think JFK could really have intended to pull out of the Vietnam war, since he went along with legacy left him by Nixon and the 40 committee, which included the Bay of Pigs operation already on the books.

   But when JFK saw the CIA and the Cubans in action he refused to be pushed into sending American troops into Cuba. When the Joint Chiefs were ready and raring to go into full scale nuclear war with the USSR during the missile crisis, JFK was almost the only level head in the room who refused. And he WAS pulling out of Vietnam. He had given the orders and forced the Joint Chiefs to project that withdrawal by the end of 1964 during the month of April, 1963.

   The Joint Chiefs reversed him 180 degrees plus on the Monday following his assassination, projecting instead a 10-year war with 57,000 dead that freaked out my mother enough to take it back up to the Chiefs and question it, the first civilian protest to the war in Vietnam by their highest paid woman manpower analyst.

   And even today you can go into the homes of poor Black people in the South and find pictures on the wall of Jesus, Dr. King and the Kennedy brothers because of the hope for change they represented in their response to popular movements like civil rights and nuclear disarmament. Kennedy called for an end to the Cold War in June of 1963. He was going after the Mafia and threatening the tax writeoffs of the oil rich. He said in October he would "scatter the CIA to the four winds", and behind the scenes he was reaching out to normalize relations with Cuba that last year.

   But it's not enough for Howard Zinn and Alexander Cockburn, much less Max Holland and David Corn. They want more dirt, and they want us never to notice a tree for fear we will miss the forest. The hard truth of the matter is that the left critique of Kennedy, and there is one to be made, is not the issue. It is the right's critique of him that mattered, what Generals Curtis Lemay and Lyman Lemnitzer thought of him and what they did about it.

   Chomsky says that such "conspiracies" only exist outside the mechanisms of state power, are rare and are stopped when discovered (like Contragate he claims). And yet, when you raise the assassination of Martin Luther King with him then he becomes a "conspiracy theorist" too, saying that it was planned at the highest level of government, maybe using the Mafia, and covered up. He says they had a REASON to kill Dr. King. So, with them, it's just a function of how much you liked the guy whether he was done in by coincidence or not. Gee, maybe they'll start to wonder about the Wellstone plane crash?

   But in the end you can only get to the truth with hard work, comparing and sorting facts and rumors, and digging for the hidden reality as well as the obvious. We are paralyzed in America, says Martin Schotz in his great book History Will Not Absolve Us: Orwellian Control, Public Denial, and the Murder of President Kennedy (Kurtz, Ulmer and DeLucia, 1996), by the fact that we can BELIEVE anything but we are allowed to KNOW nothing.

   Until we know, we cannot act. And if we act on rumor and impulse then we are no less a slave than those who live in the denial that the propaganda machines promote. So, be cynical and question things, but be analytical and scientific so you can approach the truth when you speak. Three truths don't make a fourth just by mentioning them. All lies, in fact, depend on having elements of the truth in them for verismilitude as its called. Read, don't repeat what you last heard. And if you are going to be more than a theorist, then give conspiracy the respect it deserves, and prove it. Good hunting, and always come clean.

   Posted 9 years ago #
10. mark
    Member

    Ms. Honegger's material in one of Dr. Griffin's books was also discrediting to Griffin.

    Griffin's material was also discrediting to Griffin.

    www.oilempire.us/griffin.html

    David Ray Griffin

    still promotes "no plane," distrusts hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw Flight 77 hit the Pentagon or cleaned up wreckage afterwards

    cited Holocaust deniers as credible sources in an article for Tikkun, a liberal Jewish magazine (Tikkun did not check Griffin's sources)

    claims that the 9/11 war games are less important than the "no phone calls" hoax which alienated the 9/11 families on this page:

    oilempire.us sponsored David Griffin's second 9/11 lecture, July 28, 2004, but it was focused on the FAA and NORAD non-response to the attacks

    Debunking David Ray Griffin and The Truth and Lies of 9/11 Truth

    Griffin promotes discredited "no plane" hoax

    David Griffin says 9/11 disinformation is irrelevant

    related pages:

    Popular Mechanics (Hearst Corporation) focused on hoaxes, real evidence ignored

    Washington Post review of "New Pearl Harbor" a month before the Kerry / Bush "election" focused solely on "no plane" claim and ignored the rest of the book -- the editors of the Post are smart and knew that part of the book was an easy target, since they obviously knew it's a hoax

    Posted 9 years ago #
11. BrianG
    Member

    Thanks for that, Mark. Maybe I already wrote this out, but the last time I saw Dr. Barrett (in Rancho Cordova, CA a very few weeks after he had advocated the burning of the Governor's Mansion a few miles away) he told me he was so busy that he didn't have time for fact checking.

    I'm not sure that Ms. Honegger advocated that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. I think she was arguing that the plane strike was augmented by further damage on A ring and B ring. I could be wrong.

    As to JFK, I wish that you and other scholars had more effectively presented your information in connection with the 11/13 50-year anniversary, and I hope that we can get our shit together to effectively honor the 50-year anniversaries of the assassinations of RFK and MLK. Because if we don't get this right, America may get irrevocably buried under bullshit media propaganda.

    It is not enough to harrumph about it after the fact. We have to defeat it before the fact.

    Posted 9 years ago #
12. mark
    Member

    Mr. Barrett... sorry I don't think having a PhD makes one a "doctor" especially when someone pushes hoaxes like "no plane hit the WTC." But I'm biased by having relatives who are medical doctors.

    DOD employee Honegger pushed "no plane" for a long time.

    I think America got irrevocably buried under bullshit a long time ago. Perhaps excavation is possible but it doesn't seem likely.

    The fact that the media cover up for the 50th anniversary acted as if no new information had come forward since the Warren Report shows you who runs the country. The organizers of the JFK assassination are long gone but the cover up continues unabated. www.oilempire.us/mediacia.html The agencies and commands that did this would not have dared if they didn't understand they'd probably get away with it.

    I recommend the recent interview with Lisa Pease on Black Op Radio re: the 50th anniversary of RFK.

    Posted 9 years ago #
13. mark
    Member

    "The Holocaust is an unparalleled example of power run wild, which is to say that once evil on this scale picks up enough momentum, once it establishes itself in a system of functioning structures, it cannot – after a certain crucial point – be stopped by any counter force within itself. The greater the concentration of power, the greater the paranoia it generates about its need to destroy everything outside itself. The worst thing that can be said of vast power is not that it inevitably corrupts its agents, but that after some point its deployment becomes greater than the will of the men who serve it. What can be destroyed, will be destroyed – a lesson the Holocaust confirms and which we, with our B-52's and nuclear submarines, our talk of ‘death yields’ and ‘overkill,’ might wish to remember."

    -- Terrence Des Pres, introduction to Jean-Francois Steiner, "Treblinka," New York: New American Library, 1979, p. xii

    ---

    Babi Yar by Anatoli Kuznetsov (great Russian novel of World War Two by a young Ukrainian boy who lived in Kiev and watched the events happen, censored in the USSR for its frankness)

    "If civilization is in danger today, if it is fated to decline and perish, it will do so with the enthusiastic assistance of credulous people. They seem to me more dangerous than the most brazen leaders, because everything is done with their cooperation. ....

    "How pleasant it is, after all: to treat politics of whatever kind with utter contempt, to dance, to love, to drink and sleep and breathe. To live. God give you strength!

    "The only thing is that I can see from my little window that while some people are loving and sleeping, others are busy making handcuffs for them. Why? That's the question. There are so many would-be benefactors in the world. And they are all determined to shower benefits on the whole world. Nothing less. And for this purpose very little is needed: simply that the world should fit into the design which is taking shape God knows how in their feeble, complex-tortured minds.

    "They do not scorn politics; they are makers of policy. They make their own cudgel and then bring it down on other people's heads and in this manner they put their politics into practice.

    "Careful, my friends!

    "On the basis of my own and other people's experience and of experience generally, on the basis of much thinking and searching, worry and calculation, I say to you: THE PERSON WHO TODAY IGNORES POLITICS WILL REGRET IT.

    "I did not say I liked politics. I hate them. I scorn them. I do not call upon you to like them or even respect them. I am simply telling you: DON'T IGNORE THEM."

    -- A. Anatoli Kuznetsov, "Babi Yar"

    Kuznetsov was a boy when the Germans occupied Kiev. The novel was banned in the Soviet Union for many years (in its uncensored form) since it was too blunt.

    Posted 9 years ago #
14. BrianG
    Member

    Vic introduced Barrett at the Berkeley shindig. To judge by the applause, there were 25—40 people there when Barrett took the stage. I took a look at the archive of the stream reported by NoLiesRadio.

    In the penultimate question, Bonnie Faulkner asks him how does he do his research. Barrett says mostly he just takes the stuff Jim Fetzer sends him, that that's the good the bad and the ugly, and that he (Barrett) simply fills in what Fetzer has missed, relying on sources such as whatreallyhappened.

    Posted 9 years ago #
15. truthmover
    Administrator

    CIA

    Posted 9 years ago #
16. BrianG
    Member

    It's astounding that a guy who claims to be an academic martyr (hounded from a tenure-track job that he never had) would in a scholar-rich community such as Berkeley admit to journalistic negligence. Anti-intellectualism is quite pervasive in the midwest, and perhaps Barrett is simply conforming to his environment.

    Posted 9 years ago #
17. truthmod
    Administrator

    Was anyone else at this shameful event skeptical as well??

    I know there are plenty of conspiracy fans who will eat up anything the organizers throw at them, but this in 2015 sounds pretty unacceptable.

    BTW, thanks mark for quoting me on your David Ray Griffin page. I don't remember writing that, but it sounds about right.

    Posted 9 years ago #
18. BrianG
    Member

    I watched the Q&A because I wanted to see if there were any hostile questions. Didn't see any.

    At one point Barrett put up screencap slides from some forum where he said Bay Area truthers had attacked him. Presumably those slides identified the perps. They were not displayed on the stream. He also claimed that people had contacted Rabbi Lerner to object to Lerner's participation in the Hebdo book.

    I'll suppose that the fact that the stream did not include an audience shot is an indication that the turnout was very light.

    I'm starting to think that conspiracy fatigue is a very, very destructive force in the progressive movement--and to suspect that we may be playing into the government's hands when we invite people to consider conspiracy theories. A large portion of the people we inform about these issues choose to embrace their cynicism and focus on maintaining a "beautiful mind" and abandon civic engagement. I have always felt that instead of focusing on anomalies that intrigue us we should stick to what we can prove--the inadequacy of the official investigations, and the corrosive effect that has on an allegedly open society.

    As to quoting you--well, I've always found youse guys to be among the most perceptive 9/11 activists around (though I wish Mark could stop being such an Eeyore). I was not aware that I had a "David Ray Griffin page".
    What are you talking about?

    Posted 9 years ago #
19. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks for the passing along the information.

    I agree that conspiracy fatigue is an issue. I think it's important to ask the difficult questions about whether our work is even productive. Sometimes I think we are just falling into their trap of divide and conquer and overwhelmed cynicism.

    The DRG page was Mark's.

    Posted 9 years ago #
20. BrianG
    Member

    The DRG page was Mark's? Well in that case I withdraw my obsequious remarks. :>)

    Posted 9 years ago #
21. mark
    Member

    As John Judge said, 9/11 Truth is an inside job!

    Nothing "eeyore" about admitting this, except for those allergic to fact checking.

    Conspiracy fatigue predates 9/11.

    And 9/11 is far from the last chapter in understanding the National Security State.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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