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Treason in America Conference (39 posts)

  1. christs4sale
    Administrator

    What does everyone think of this conference? I really could care less at this point and have no interest spending any money on something like this. I do not really have any interest in 9/11 activism at this point and my only interest is personal research and very small-scale discussion at this point. Shaffer, Rowley, Springmann and Albanese would be the only people I would have interest in seeing and I would have little tolerance for what I think the crowd will be. Seems like there will be a major presence of anti-NWO/patriot people at this thing.

    I just think what one of these events could be. The recent COPA conference in Dallas was a pretty good example.

    http://www.treasoninamericaconference.com/

    Posted 14 years ago #
  2. truthmod
    Administrator

    Strange lineup.

    John, what will you be presenting?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  3. JohnA
    Member

    yes. i'm opening sunday morning. and - yes - i am aware of the line-up issues.

    but - i would add to Christ4Sale's list (of worthy presenters) the 9/11 Press for the Truth guys - Dahlia S. Wasfi - Jack Blood - any of the first responders / victim's family members- Cindy Sheehan - and - of course - Jon Gold.

    i know its a big tent - but i intend to speak directly to the issue of 9/11 Truth and the state of the movement - and talk about activism baed based on PRINCIPALS.

    and i intend be speaking to a wider audience than those in actual attendance. i will be speaking to the critics of 9/11 Truth - and really have no interest in preaching to the choir.

    i know some of you would probably believe that NOT participating is the right strategy. i can understand that. but - i think i am more aligned with Jon Gold's philosophy. He refuses to surrender. He is aware that the big tent is a problem - but - he refuses to surrender his little piece of territory. just look at the efforts that have been made to silence him. but - really - would be better off if he gave up?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  4. mark
    Member

    I would imagine that anyone suggesting that "no planes" is pure bullshit would not be very popular at this event. Some may agree, but good luck getting the conference as a whole to admit that, or that the demolition claims are promoted by people who don't bother to look at all of the facts such as the firefighters who watched all three buildings (1, 2, 7) leaning before they collapsed, which is not controlled demolition. The "thermite" claims are on the same level of absurdity as holograms and missiles and no phone calls. Sorry if this is politically incorrect to say this.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  5. JohnA
    Member

    everyone is entitled to their opinions.

    but - given the fact that even among users of this forum (a well-moderated and fairly legitimate forum) - there are differences of opinion - i think it is unrealistic to think that we can ever expect a public event like this to present one homogenous view on 9/11.

    the best we can do is ensure that the voice of reason is represented - based on principals. CD is legitimate. CD is not legitimate. Pentacon is legitimate. Pentacon in not legitimate. Pakistan evidence is legitimate. Pakistan evidence is not legitimate. we can ride that merry-go-round forever - and get nowhere.

    on the other hand - when you present 9/11 from the perspective of a legitimate grassroots issue seeking ACCOUNTABILITY and HISTORICAL CLARITY - it kinda explains why the more illegitimate wing exists. conspiracy theories are the last refuge of a public abandoned by it's public leaders. Conspiracy theories are the direct product of lies and coverups.

    they are a symptom.

    at least.... that's how i hope to frame it

    Posted 14 years ago #
  6. mark
    Member

    Reality is not subject to a vote, not even a vote of conspiracy people. Theories that lack any evidence can be safely dismissed, but this is not a popular view in the "truth" movement.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  7. JohnA
    Member

    i agree - but you do understand that even the 'legitimate' activists can't seem to agree on what the reality is either.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  8. truthmover
    Administrator

    To me, the 9/11 truth movement is about increasing skepticism toward official sources with established facts. I have very little interest in research or speculation at this point. So if we're not sure about it, I'd leave it off the table.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  9. JohnA
    Member

    exactly

    i think the only antidote to the 'conspiracy theory' meme is to focus on the principals - not facts.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  10. mark
    Member

    It's a two front war for truth, not merely a binary dichotomy.

    And as John Judge says, just because someone says the government is lying doesn't mean they're telling the truth.

    Most of the "truth" movement wouldn't recognize the truth of 9/11 complicity if they stumbled across it, too many viewings of right wing nonsense films have blocked critical thinking (the consequences of being raised on TV?). Not a surprise that another crazy person who was a fan of right winger "truth" material committed violence at the Pentagon (a place of institutionalized violence, but they prefer not to have actual blood shed there). Sad, very sad.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  11. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Mark, why are you always haranguing people on this board about the things they already know and conclusions they usually agree with? This is the place where you will find some of those most critical of the Alex Jones WAC "truth movement" and the "demolitions-only" religion (currently the two big wings among the 9/11 activists).

    We know it's a two-front war against the cover-up on the one side and the disinfo from within the movement on the other, and we got squeezed, which was upsetting and angered us all. We see the travesty especially of the AJ movement and LC the no-planes and so forth, but I think most of us still are a lot more angry about the state cover-up, lies, and evidence of state orchestration, and might still like to do something about it. People who do not disseminate disinformation about 9/11, like John and the truthmove crew, nevertheless may have different ideas about how to approach "the movement" psychologically. They don't need your purity lectures.

    And I wouldn't give any encouragement to the emergent meme about 9/11 truth and violence, by the way. That encourages criminalization of any skeptical view. Violent acts are committed every day by people who are good official-story believing Americans. If this guy watched those movies and then went and shot cops at random, still it wasn't those movies or "conspiracy theory" that did it, it was him. Actually it was heavy metal music, dungeons and dragons, satanism, bad parenting and violence on TV, to pick some of the usual canards in this area. He is described as having a history of mental illness but this is being conflated with "anti-government rants." Don't feed into the attempt to generally characterize "conspiracy theorists" (that would include YOU in the hegemonic view) as mentally ill. And for all you know this was a psyop.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  12. christs4sale
    Administrator

    JohnA,

    Do you have anything to say about the conference?

    Thanks.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  13. JohnA
    Member

    I think it went well – although I missed a good part of it arriving late on Saturday – and leaving early on Sunday. I pretty much just did my part and didn’t hang around.

    I’m looking forward to seeing the entire conference in video.

    A few things –

    Sack of sh*t Phil Berg was in attendance – hanging out in the outer area where the tabling was going on. At one point I caught him distributing ‘Birther’ literature – and told Jon Gold – who reacted very strongly to the news and rushed over to stop him. The way he rushed over there I thought he was going to clock’m.

    Les Jamieson and Gabriel Day were in attendance. Les was at a table displaying “Synthetic Terror” - which we all know was written by Webster Tarpley – a major disruptor in the movement. Garbriel shook my hand and was polite enough. Les appeared to watch me from across the room with a sarcastic smile. We basically avoided each other.

    Sander Hicks also came over to shake my hand – but he seemed extremely embarrassed.

    I met Zombie Bill Hicks from TruthAction and had some great conversation. He’s one of the most grounded posters over on TruthAction – so it was a pleasure meeting him.

    I think my own presentation went well. Jon told me I gave one of the best speeches of the weekend – which pleases me. When Jon Gold introduced me and mentioned my film by name, an enthusiastic round of applause spontaneously erupted. I was really surprised. I had gone into this gig wondering if anyone would even know who I was. I assumed my film was long gone and forgotten.

    Following my speech Colleen Rowley rushed up to me backstage to shake my hand and thank me. She was scheduled to speak immediately following my presentation – and I think she was relieved that she would not be following anyone too radical.

    Jack Blood gave a rousing speech. He’s fun to listen to – although much of his political opinions are just a little too ‘out there’ for me. He’s pushing the ‘freedom’ theme to the hilt – and at one point when he complained about DUI arrests –and referred to it as ‘pre-crime’ arrests – I just had to roll my eyes. He also touched on ‘guns’ and the ‘Rothchilds’ and “NWO” themes throughout. Also not my bag. But – I will say that he make extremely legitimate points. I think I take more umbrage with how he frames them.

    You could see that Colleen very carefully parses her words. Like Cindy she gives no obvious support to the “inside job” meme – instead, smartly, limiting her points to the obvious cover-ups and misinformation and neo-con politics of both the past and current administrations. She reference a lot of what I said in my speech about accountability – which was very cool – and showed she is able to go off script on these themes.

    Of course I would have loved to have pulled her aside and really picked her brain on the Moussoui investigation – and all the strange little facts surrounding that case – but – that would not have been too cool.

    I think it’s a real breakthrough that people like Shaffer and Sheehan and Rowley are participating at these events – and everything possible should be done to keep them comfortable – and not spook them off with over-zealousness. We need to keep disinformation and disruptions to a minimum. It’s one of the reasons why I spoke. I know some of you had some issues with some of the speakers on the agenda – but – rather than boycott events like this – it is my opinion that we should show up and make sure the voice of reason is heard.

    Of course the usual nonsense happened. Colleen gave a great speech on the politics of truth, and her investigation, and the administration policies, etc etc. She then opened it up to questions and the first question was about the Pentagon. Of course. How could it NOT be?

    And of course the CD advocates were there in full force. I have no problem with that – just as long as it remains BALANCED. Unfortunately there were the usual irate CD advocates who seemed to want to insert their pet subject into every other discussion – and with that usual obnoxious self-certitude that seems to overwhelm every rational discussion.

    All in all I would call the conference a success. But – somehow we need to break the glass ceiling the media has put into place – allowing the subject to ONLY rise to a certain level in the media – framed as the product of conspiracy theory – while still adamantly refusing to cover the broader issues of accountability and cover-ups. It seems like we are so close… yet so far.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  14. Victronix
    Member

    Thanks for posting about the conference John, it sounds like you had a good time overall.

    This video has a hilarious part where they interview Sander Hicks and he describes himself as a "scientist and historian," to which the reporter says, "Scientist and historian? I thought you were a musician?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqQHHYaBsGg

    An interesting piece.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  15. christs4sale
    Administrator

    I just found it funny when the reporter asked Sander what he does for a living. He certainly did an excellent job at appearing completely crazy whether intentional or not.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  16. Victronix
    Member

    appearing completely crazy

    Indeed. Funny for someone who appears to crave attention so much to apparently go nuts when he's given the spotlight.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  17. JohnA
    Member

    you should have seen him at Riverside Church in 2004. People LITERALLY fled with their hands over their ears.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  18. truthmover
    Administrator

    I've met Hicks on several occasions, as have many of us. He's not crazy and generally comes off fairly cool headed in person. So I figure if he's hamming it up for the cameras it's an act. I trust his intentions no more than I trust Les.

    Does anyone know if NY911Truth is done for? Are they still having meetings at the Church? Les seems to have succeeded in sinking the group despite the opportunity presented by NYC CAN for recruitment. They had more people involved in that than ever before. Young people. And yet nothing seems to have come of it. Classic Les.

    Otherwise, it sounds like the conference went well. Glad to hear it.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  19. LeftWright
    Member

    I've met Sander as well, he certainly is never shy about promoting himself or changing his "look". I thought he had a coffee shop, did that go under or does he think that "church musician" sounds more credible? That has to be the oddest interview I've seen him do.

    As for all the arguments against controlled demolition here, anyone who was paying attention in junior high science class would immediately realize that WTC 7 was brought down in a classic, textbook controlled demolition, albeit with some very high tech incendiaries/explosives. It takes only a little more work to see that the Twin Towers were also brought down with incendiaries and explosives. All that remains to be determined is exactly who did it and exactly how it was done. Unless you want to argue against hundreds of years of basic Newtonian physics, then you need to accept CD as fact and move on.

    Frankly, aside from an interest in the developing details regarding how it was done (I happen to like science). I find CD to be not very interesting, although it can be a useful tool in convincing open-minded and science literate people that there are real problems with the Zelikow narrative (aka the OCT).

    I'm far more interested in exposing the financial and social networks involved in the 9/11 operation, as that is what will lead to the perps and those behind the perps. But this takes hard work doing deep, time consuming research and many people are too lazy to take this on, even to read other people's research, it seems. Thus, they retreat to promoting the cut and dry CD as their primary method of activism. Sad, but true.

    The antagonism toward CD here comes across as sour grapes, btw. Some strange version of the not invented here syndrome, perhaps?

    I, too, would like to know the status of NY911Truth.

    I hope that you and yours are all well.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  20. JohnA
    Member

    i think you are mischaracterizing this site's position on CD.

    Many of us here do in fact believe there is enough evidence for CD to warrant serious consideration and investigation.

    I think the problem many of us have is the approach that many activists take to 'testing' activists for their 'loyalty' to CD. You seem to be doing that also. I think many of us have a problem with the fact that SOME activists seek to TRUMP all other concerns and research with the CD theory - going as far as to slander and smear activists who do not adhere to their absolutist stances on the subject. This is divisive to the movement.

    and if you need evidence of this divisive behavior - you need only look as far as your own post here.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  21. truthmover
    Administrator

    LeftWright,

    Please have a look at the TruthMove Controlled Demolition page. You might also have a look at our Disinformation page which does not mention CD. You might also note that Victronix is a regular poster here, one of our first, and has not been made to feel unwelcome with any majority of negative commenting toward what she promotes.

    Sour Grapes? That's a lame way to avoid what is a strong argument about strategy made by people here that CD is not a 'smoking gun' and in fact is easily and very often used to discredit the movement.

    "anyone who was paying attention in junior high science class would immediately realize that WTC 7 was brought down in a classic, textbook controlled demolition"

    It's statements like that than make me and others have a hard time thinking you would understand our point. It's an overstatement and betrays the complexity of the information and more importantly people's perception of it. Does it look like a CD? Yes. Does that mean that everyone in the public would accept it as such? No. Does it mean that is was for sure? No. Does it mean that we should barrel ahead promoting it as the most important part of this movement? No. Does it mean that we ignore the mainstream perception of our claims? No. It's just not so simple.

    Now, to add some nuance to my argument. I greatly respect the efforts of people such as Victronix here to research and discover what actually happened. And I do understand that CD is a hook for many people that draws them into this concern. Building 7 certainly did a number on my head.

    But there is a difference between that research and a balance promotion of the issue along with other things, and pushing it like it's a 'smoking gun' or the most important part of the movement. I consider that unwise and my concerns are confirmed by the manner in which our movement is most often ridiculed. According to the news we think Bush blew up the towers. And honestly, whether you like it or not, mainstream Americans think that sounds crazy, and by them I mean our TARGET AUDIENCE.

    Do you get that point? We've already convinced everyone outside the mainstream who would move in our direction. Now if this movement is going to grow at all or succeed any further we have to court mainstream public opinion. And CD is simply not the best way to do that. I'm not suggesting it be excluded. But it shouldn't be at the top of our promo list.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  22. LeftWright
    Member

    (pulling foot out of mouth, ready to insert other one...)

    First, let me apologize for not taking the time to get a better sense of this site before making some of the perhaps poorly worded comments above.

    Second, let me say that I have great respect for JohnA and Jules (I assume that is you , Jules, yes?) and I did note that Victoria comments here in my obviously too brief tour of the site. I work with her when I am lucky enough to and have great respect for her, as well.

    Third, any perceived divisiveness is most regrettable and I apologize for whatever words I used that came across as divisive. That is the last thing I want and I don't have any loyalty tests for those in the movement, unless someone is intentionally promoting disinformation.

    I think I was primarily reacting to someone posting under the name "Mark" who seems to have the worst understanding of basic science of anyone I've ever encountered on a serious 9/11 truth site. Your tolerance of him is commendable, as is the general civility of this site. [I stumbled on a thread where he was claiming that hydraulic fluid temperature allowances on heavy construction equipment proved that there was no molten iron in the piles while trying to find my way back to this thread (easy to get lost here, for me anyway...)] His assertions about the absurdity of thermite claims and leaning buildings on this thread are completely without a factual basis and thus are merit-less, yet this clear disinformation is tolerated here, why?

    I would also agree that anyone who states that "Bush blew up the towers" is not doing the movement any favors and this is something I always make quite clear. The fact that the media tries to put up this straw man should not dissuade anyone from making the relatively obvious case for CD, however. The msm's ability to use the CD argument against us is only as easy as we let it be, imo.

    The fact that more Americans don't instantly recognize a clear CD (WTC 7) when they see one speaks more to the general failing of science education in this country than anything else and, since public education is the primary mission of 9/11 truth at the moment, this is being rectified on an ongoing basis (perhaps not as well as you or I would like, but that speaks more to the lack of adequate training for 9/11 truth activists, something else that needs to be addressed proactively and not simply bemoaned).

    [ I should add here that if you can give be a plausible explanation for the destruction of WTC 7 that does not involve some form of CD, I'd love to read it]

    It's also worth noting that many, if not most, Americans have still not actually seen the video of WTC 7 going down, so it is very worthwhile to put in front of them as often as possible.

    I also agree that we need to be very cognizant of how the msm frames 9/11 truth and work diligently to not reinforce the traps they set. One of the things I do a lot of is monitor what I call propaganda push back, so that I am able to better counter the constant spin we face in public.

    I think if you carefully re-read what I wrote above (esp. paragraph four) you will see that I think there should be greater emphasis placed on the non-CD aspects of 9/11 as I strongly suspect that that part of the operation was completely compartmentalized from everything else and that most of those involved in the actual placement of charges will never be found or be completely oblivious to their role in it (assuming much of the nanothermite was sprayed on as a fire retardant or installed as part of ceiling tiles or something, both scenarios being highly plausible, imo).

    Now, with all that said, the fact of the matter is that CD is the point of the truth spear right now (like it or not) and we have to work with that as best we can until all the other avenues of 9/11 research bear more useful fruit and can gain greater currency with the public. CD is a smoking gun (one of many, I grant you). CD is sexy and sex sells. This may be a situation where we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I am a strategic thinker and would very much like to read what you think are better strategies for the 9/11 truth movement. Are there some threads here I should read where this has already been discussed?

    Finally, in my own activism I use all the credible information I know when making the case against the Zelikow narrative. Generally speaking, my first approach is just to ask people what they think about 9/11 and if they have any questions about the events of that day. This usually provides me with an opening to address their questions directly, draw them in and more often than not win them over. Thus, I take my cue from them and if they are interested in put-options or NORAD's absence, that is what I talk about.

    Everything I am seeing is indicating that 9/11 truth is growing, that we are gaining ground every day. What is it that you are seeing that is telling you otherwise?

    [I will make sure to wash my feet before checking back on this thread]

    I hope that you and yours are well.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  23. JohnA
    Member

    spoken like a true gentleman. apologies accepted

    Now, with all that said, the fact of the matter is that CD is the point of the truth spear right now (like it or not) and we have to work with that as best we can until all the other avenues of 9/11 research bear more useful fruit and can gain greater currency with the public.

    well - let me ask you - would 911Blogger be willing to front page my presentation at the Treason in America conference - in that SAME spirit of balanced reporting and fair play? Because while you seem sincere in your interests in presenting the 'alternative' evidence - it appears to many of us that non-CD issues are in fact discouraged - and actions speak louder than words.

    If - as you say - you would like to see other avenues of 9/11 research "bear more useful fruit" and "gain greater currency with the public" - doesn't some of the responsibility lie with those who silence those subjects?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  24. LeftWright
    Member

    JohnA -

    I look forward to seeing the video of your presentation at the Treason in America conference, will it be submitted to 911Blogger soon? (by Apollo 304, I'm guessing)

    Assuming that it falls within the site rules (and I'm sure it will), I see no reason why it shouldn't be posted to the front page. [I'm going to guess that your presentation is far more coherent than Cindy Sheehan's (I love her, but she really needs to work on her public presentation style, imo)]

    I'd really like someone to submit a blog about Peace of the Action, as that should be on the front page and it was almost an afterthought in Cindy's presentation. I hope to head out to D.C. to camp out later this year, as I have long believed that we have to peacefully invade and occupy Washington D.C. to force our government to actually listen to the people.

    I'm really quite puzzled that you think there is some bias at the site in favor of CD or against non-CD articles. We post what comes in and, unfortunately, not nearly enough non-CD blogs are submitted. If I had more time I would research and write more blogs myself, but right now I am slammed with moderating, working with the Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance and organizing some events for AE911Truth.

    No one is silencing these subjects at 911Blogger (at least not on my watch).

    Be well.

    Regards, John W. Wright

    Posted 14 years ago #
  25. mark
    Member

    I've never written anything about hydraulic fluid, but it's easy to make stuff up on a website.

    The info about the leaning buildings came from the firefighters who were at the scene who had transits to measure the existence of the bulges in the buildings. Sorry that I consider the reports from the firefighters who were there to be primary evidence, slightly more credible than internet posts on a discussion list nearly a decade after the fact.

    And I have never seen a verifiable claim that thermite has ever been used in a controlled demolition of a building anywhere on Earth. It lacks the precise timing that would be needed for controlled demolition. On the other hand, termites definitely can bring down buildings, but they usually need to be made out of wood for that to happen. :)

    The popularity of the demolition theory reflects our proclivity to watch television instead of read. Critical thinking is not part of our video obsessed culture. A lie in a video is more important than a truth in a book. It's not a coincidence that the media focuses on this and not the Complete 9/11 Timeline, The Road to 9/11, The War on Truth, Crossing the Rubicon, etc.

    I've lost count of the number of serious reporters I've tried talking to who dismiss 9/11 complicity as "you're not one of those people who thinks 9/11 didn't happen" and therefore won't look at all at foreknowledge and obstruction of efforts to stop the attacks.


    I think I was primarily reacting to someone posting under the name "Mark" who seems to have the worst understanding of basic science of anyone I've ever encountered on a serious 9/11 truth site. Your tolerance of him is commendable, as is the general civility of this site. [I stumbled on a thread where he was claiming that hydraulic fluid temperature allowances on heavy construction equipment proved that there was no molten iron in the piles while trying to find my way back to this thread (easy to get lost here, for me anyway...)] His assertions about the absurdity of thermite claims and leaning buildings on this thread are completely without a factual basis and thus are merit-less, yet this clear disinformation is tolerated here, why?

    Posted 14 years ago #

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