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Seeking the Truth (8 posts)

  1. EndlessSender
    Member

    I have been looking for a site where rational, careful discussion on the issue of government and corporate falsehood can go on without interruption by people who, apparently, are well trained in disruption. So far, this forum looks pretty good--so far. But I just discovered you folks so I'll have to wait and see.

    But really, there isn't much time left. My heart is broken. The tragedy of it all just takes my breath away. This is not the time to be cute or pompous. This is no time to be immature, cynical, hysterical or terrified. This is a time for courage even when there is no courage to find.

    I'm scared. I'm confused. I'm alienated from my society and losing my ability to believe in anything.

    I'm hoping to find a little good news here.

    So far, so good...

    Posted 15 years ago #
  2. Arcterus
    Member

    This is definitely one of the best sites out there for rational discussion. Welcome aboard.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  3. truthmover
    Administrator

    Welcome!

    You sound like you are in the right place. Most of us here will identify with what you've said. Lot's of frustration and alienation. We are all pessimistic in our own way, but choose not be let it make our lives miserable. Having people to share all that with is an important way that we deal with our pessimism. And there are some things to be optimistic about.

    This forum is VERY strictly moderated. We try to keep our focus broad, but this is also one of the only multi-issue forums dealing with non-mainstream issue such as 9/11 truth that is entirely free of trolls. Period. Having a public forum with no trolls requires constant vigilance. They do come and go. But we've been at this a while and know how to deal with it.

    In fact, we are so sharp about trolling that I'm going to suggest something that I hope you will understand is only meant to build confidence in you that we mean business. I am NOT suggesting the following is true. But keep in mind that it could be as it has been before.

    My initial read of your post leaves me open to the possibility that you could be a troll. Here's how that has gone down in the past.

    You write the above to earn our trust by saying things that encourage our empathy and sympathy. You make yourself appear to be an earnest seeker of truth. The 'so far, so good' comment is fairly typical in such a case. You are setting us up to know that you are judging us so that when you exit based on a judgment, it seems consistent with your entrance, and doesn't blow your cover as a troll. Then you start posting about certain subjects in a way that furthers the appearance of you having a common perspective. Later you post about a specific issue that one of our detractors is looking to corner us on. You would be trying to get us to reveal that we aren't informed or rational on the issue of Israeli involved in 9/11, the CIT 'flyover theory", the origin of global warming, etc, ... That would be followed by a short exchange during which you would try to peg us as not arguing in good faith and we would figure out your intent. And then, realizing we aren't going to take the bait, that we are more prepared for this and generally educated than most targets, and that we are making you look bad, you would leave never to return.

    Anyway, that anyone would choose to spend time expressing themselves here is an honor. We set this up because we couldn't find this when we went looking for it. And we always hope it will continue to grow or at least be there for the few who understand what is unique about a forum with no trolls and thoughtful posters.

    I'm curious about what has been getting to you lately. What are you most frustrated about?

    For me that would be the suicidal pace at which we are destroying our ecosystem. The amount of money spent on weapons. And the lack of political interest in the most influencial country on earth.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  4. truthmod
    Administrator

    Welcome, EndlessSender. The "good news" that you will find here is that there are reasonable, rational people involved in hidden history/conspiracy research. We are open to differences of opinion here and we will only ban people who are aggressively irrational or clearly here to disrupt.

    We are as open and honest as we can be.

    Many times, I've witnessed the tactic of cynical and disruptive posters trying to gain our trust and then twisting their rhetoric in an attempt to show that we are just like them--closed-minded, hypocritical, self-interested, irrational, vengeful. These people hate themselves and thus they hate everything. Their lives are defined by fear and loathing and they want to prove that everyone else is just like them. They do not believe in rationality, truth, or compassion, but simply power, and thus our "truth movement" project is anathema to everything they stand for. They try to dismiss us as ridiculous and insignificant, but for some reason they keep coming back trying prove something. I wish all these tortured souls only love and understanding, but if they try to disrupt our very important discussions here, they're history.

    I'm sure we have our lurkers who are psychologically profiling us to see "how the enemy thinks." Well, I suggest they analyze themselves. Some of them come out of the woodwork to provoke a response and make a point, or in order to learn more about our thinking. Some of them may be consistently posting false sentiments and may have not yet raised any suspicion. So be it. But as long as we're online, we'll be vigilantly providing a safe forum for truth.

    I think that many of us on this board can relate to the feelings you've expressed and will be open to discussing almost anything, no matter how personal, with you.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  5. EndlessSender
    Member

    I appreciate your honesty. I'm suspicious just as you are, and (I suppose) for similar reasons. I've been "burned" in the past, and that takes a lot out of a person. I won't "name names" but I've shared some of my ideas on sites where the paranoia level was through the roof and so the subversion of serious discussion was complete. Nothing could be said without some extreme and (to my mind) deliberately contentious argument leading nowhere. I've also noticed that some folks really seem to enjoy "conspiracy theories" as hobby and love to just hang out on web forums for fun. I'm really not sure what to think about that.

    As far as my intent, I really haven't had the time to develop a sophisticated understanding of the issues involved. I don't know what the "big fights" are about. I'm not hip to the latest gossip. I'm just a pretty ordinary guy who used to vote Republican, then Libertarian, then was horrified by the antics of Bush I and then disturbed by the antics of Clinton and then terrified by the actions of Bush II. I've seen good friends turn into people I don't know. They tell me that Saddam Hussein blew up the World Trade Center and I'm speechless. The "9/11 Truth Movement" is no help in trying to enlighten these people. Oh sure, I was very excited about "9/11 Truth" at first, but then I began to see the same things you see. I don't mean that one theory is "right" or "wrong"-- I mean the rigid thinking and the crazy desire to fight with each other all the time. The lack of flexibility and inability to see what's going on.

    We have pretty good evidence that the GW Bush administration launched a war of aggression, which is a crime against humanity as defined at the Nuremberg trials. Our military and state police apparatus holds people indefinitely without trial and tortures them. This is another crime (or two crimes).

    So, here is what I am having to learn to accept. My country, the country I served in the military and the one I dearly love, was, in fact, run by war criminals who will not be brought to justice, and the only people who seem to see this clearly spend their time bickering and quarreling on the internet.

    I marched in Washington in 2004. I rode a bus from Minnesota to Washington D.C. with a bunch of people whom I would have called "hippies" a few years earlier. They told me about things I could hardly believe. Now, I'm beginning to believe. But I'm not marching, either. I noticed right away that most of my "bus mates" were just partisan Democrats and they really didn't care about war crimes. They cared about getting a Democrat in White House. I voted for Obama, but really, I don't believe that the Democratic Party and Republican Party are anything other than the "good cop" and "bad cop." But I voted.

    So here I am. And here is an example of how I think:

    I have been told that during the famous reading of "The Pet Goat" that Andrew Card whispered in Bush's ear, "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack."

    But--do we KNOW that he said that? All we have is testimony that he said it, but he could have said, "Something has come up, we'll keep you informed," or "The situation is stable," or "All is going according to our fiendish plan," or "The cameraman wants another closeup."

    We do not know what Mr. Card said to the President.

    So imagine my frustration when I read pages and pages of argument over what happened after he supposedly said "America is under attack."

    I hope you can appreciate where I'm coming from.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  6. JohnA
    Member

    I have been told that during the famous reading of "The Pet Goat" that Andrew Card whispered in Bush's ear, "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack."

    But--do we KNOW that he said that? All we have is testimony that he said it, but he could have said, "Something has come up, we'll keep you informed," or "The situation is stable," or "All is going according to our fiendish plan," or "The cameraman wants another closeup."

    why would Andrew Card intentional embarass the president by lying? the president took a lot of heat for not reacting to "America is under attack." Bush admits that is what Card said.

    why would they make up a story designed to make Bush look like a total baffoon?

    Posted 15 years ago #
  7. EndlessSender
    Member

    I'm glad you asked that question because I can make an important point about the value of differentiating between what we know and what we think we know. If we accept the official story that Card told Bush the "America is under attack" then we have one possible scenario among many. But, in this scenario Bush sits looking bewildered for a long time before he takes action. His behavior is famously inappropriate and even implies that he is not concerned about the attack (for some reason). The imagination can run riot.

    If we reasonably take the position that it was Clark who made a major blunder by failing to understand the importance of the event and failing to tell Bush what was happening, then Bush's behavior subsequently makes more sense. It makes sense that he would sit quietly if Clark told him something like "there is more news on the New York situation when you have a moment." This would be a stupid mistake for Clark to make, but Bush now does not appear to be a dangerous fool or a confused conspirator. In this scenario, however, he must eventually discover that his trusted subordinate make a grave error. In my opinion, it would be in keeping with Bush's character that he would try to cover for Clark, since he would see himself obliged to take on the ultimate responsibility and chastise Clark in private, not on the evening news.

    Furthermore, this whole issue is a good example of how jumping to an incorrect conclusion, based on some (but not all) information can lead a person to go a long way in the wrong direction. I think it's very interesting that in this one single example a great deal of speculation has gone on that is usually unseen and unrecognized as speculation. Keep in mind that Bush is some kind of compulsive liar, and Clark would lie if told to do so by Bush, and it saved him from embarrassment or even the loss of his job.

    It's not about what Clark said, it's about our willingness to accept "truth" that may not be true at all--that, in fact, probably isn't true.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  8. truthmover
    Administrator

    Nothing could be said without some extreme and (to my mind) deliberately contentious argument leading nowhere.

    Once again, trolls and/or people who've overly attached their ego to one viewpoint of another. There is a concerted effort to turn off intelligent and thoughtful people to non-mainstream points of view. And there are a lot of very neurotic people attracted to these concerns.

    I've also noticed that some folks really seem to enjoy "conspiracy theories" as hobby and love to just hang out on web forums for fun.

    As I implied, forums can be a place where people can commiserate with those who understand their sense of alienation. We don't need to be strictly dealing in facts. Feelings, intuition, and reasonable speculation are welcome given that we can tell the difference between them and facts.

    I'm wondering if that was a call to action. Are you interested in talking about facts and 'just hanging out on web forums', or did you mean to imply that people should take action?

    As far as my intent, I really haven't had the time to develop a sophisticated understanding of the issues involved. I don't know what the "big fights" are about. I'm not hip to the latest gossip. I'm just a pretty ordinary guy who used to vote Republican, then Libertarian, then was horrified by the antics of Bush I and then disturbed by the antics of Clinton and then terrified by the actions of Bush II. I've seen good friends turn into people I don't know.

    I'd say that many of us fall somewhere in the middle, maybe leaning to the left, on the political spectrum. But the kind of frustration and concern you are dealing with transcends basic political orientation. We see both the right and left losing their minds based on mainstream propaganda.

    Not being able to relate to people with different political views is a failure on our part as educators. Out on the street doing outreach some of those here came to recognize that it's possible to related to nearly anyone who hasn't completely closed off their skepticism. We might have been out with a 9/11 truth banner, and someone might not appreciate or understand that concern. But we were fairly successful at times finding something we DID agree about. You can't dismiss someone's insight based upon only certain views. For instance, many of the more conservative people we met on the street resonated strongly with our general concern for government oversight.

    We've all been alienated from people we cared about as a result of following the information where it lead us. That's one of the non-factual aspects of this environment that is very important. It's psychologically healthy to relate to people who don't think we are nuts.

    The "9/11 Truth Movement" is no help in trying to enlighten these people.

    That's really sad and very true. There are people who find the information the movement offers very enlightening. But as I implied above it's not easy to be a good educator. No one here is perfect at it. We all get frustrated here and there. But on the whole, yes, the movement is a total mess and not remotely unified. Here you've run into a small pocket of those with their heads screwed on tight. And we have no interest in unifying with a good majority of the groups and "theories" we see out there. TruthMove is specifically opposed to "big tent" organizing. You don't unify facts and fallacies to increase numbers.

    So, here is what I am having to learn to accept. My country, the country I served in the military and the one I dearly love, was, in fact, run by war criminals who will not be brought to justice, and the only people who seem to see this clearly spend their time bickering and quarreling on the internet.

    Ouch! That's the kind of statement that sets the issue of what happened on 9/11 into some perspective. We know these people are war criminals. So then why are we bickering about less convincing reasons for that and not finding the motivation to connect with people based on what we DO agree on. Good point, and something I could benefit from keeping in mind more often.

    I noticed right away that most of my "bus mates" were just partisan Democrats and they really didn't care about war crimes. They cared about getting a Democrat in White House. I voted for Obama, but really, I don't believe that the Democratic Party and Republican Party are anything other than the "good cop" and "bad cop." But I voted.

    Yeah, once again, both side can have their head up their ass. And while I consider it important not to entirely deny the differences between Bush and Obama, for instance, I also know they both serve the same larger aims of dominance and consumption. We started TruthMove specifically wanting to address issues more accepted by the mainstream while not avoiding more controversial issues just because it might drive off those mainstream political types.

    So imagine my frustration when I read pages and pages of argument over what happened after he supposedly said "America is under attack."

    I think I get where you are coming from about unproductive speculation. What Andrew Card said is not all that central to the movement. But as you suggest that doesn't mean there aren't people wasting lots of time on concerns of equal or lesser importance. My recommendation is that you accept the fact that there isn't really any kind of functional or unified 9/11 truth movement. That was hard for me to accept, because I want to be a part of something bigger. But infiltrators and idiots have done a fairly good job of fostering distraction and preventing unity around the best evidence.

    Ultimately, I'd say let's not get hung up on 9/11 truth. If you want to ask us questions, please do so. But we can't make the whole case for you as most of us did a great deal of reading and study to come to our present understanding. Debunkers come here at times acting like they are just curious and try to get us to defend our position at length. Honestly, we just don't have time for that and other issues are as if not more important. In other words, if you have your mind made up, let's just talk about other things. That could help us avoid unproductive interaction. But as I said, feel free to ask questions.

    Posted 15 years ago #

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