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Skeptical of Molten Metal (17 posts)

  1. I am a bit suspicious of the claims of molten metal beneath the three WTC buildings. I wonder if this is disinformation. According to an argument I read, there couldn't be molten steel under these buildings. This is because the hydraulics of the heavy equipment pulling out the hot steel would fail under the extreme heat. According to the article below most seals will be damaged at temperatures over 82°C (180°F). Steel melts at around 1370°C (2500°F).

    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail...

    Thoughts?

    Posted 15 years ago #
  2. mark
    Member

    the aluminum cladding the towers had has a much lower melting point.

    it's always struck me as weird to hear claims that (1) the fires weren't hot enough to bring down the towers and (2) there was molten steel in the rubble pile. Lots of "debunkers" have pointed out this contradiction.

    Yet another reason why the media is delighted to have the truth movement mired in physical evidence claims.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  3. Victronix
    Member

    the fires weren't hot enough to bring down the towers

    Flight 11 impacted the North Tower between the 93rd and 99th floors. The fire spread to about 10 floors up from there. So about 90 floors below that were completely untouched by fire.

    Flight 175 impacted the South Tower between the 77th and 85th floors. So again, about 80 floors of one of the the world's tallest skyscrapers were completely untouched by fire.

    So yes, the fires weren't even involved, much less hot enough, to bring down a total of 170 floors of a steel frame structure strong enough to essentially swallow 2 commercial airliners impacting it at hundreds of miles per hour without any structural failure.

    And remember, the structure increases in strength as you go down, because there is more load.

    Recommended reading:

    The Towering Inferno http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talks/collapse/tow...

    Regarding molten metal, I recommend these papers --

    Extremely high temperatures during the World Trade Center destruction Dr. Steven E. Jones, Dr. Jeffrey Farrer, Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins, Dr. Frank Legge, James Gourley, Kevin Ryan, Daniel Farnsworth, and Dr. Crockett Grabbe http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHig...

    Steve's original paper includes the molten metal accounts which are proven by the iron spheres --

    Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse? http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/W...

    There's nothing disinformation about it.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  4. Mark, the melting point of aluminum is 660.32 °C, 1220.58 °F. That is still more than hot enough to damage hydraulics. The prevailing hypothesis is that thermite caused the molten steel not fire.

    Victronix, where in your references does it explain why the hydraulics would not be damaged with this high heat? Disinformation typically involves mixing lies and truth. The lies appear to be those pictures showing machines pulling out glowing dripping metal. At least some of the referenced scientists above have used these pictures to make their case. The paper "Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?" show two such pictures. Why would they not know about the problem of leaking hydraulic seals with such high heat?

    Posted 15 years ago #
  5. truthmover
    Administrator

    The lies appear to be those pictures showing machines pulling out glowing dripping metal.

    You need to either prove that the images were faked or back off that line of reasoning entirely. At least in here. None of the "referenced scientists" rely upon those images to make their case but only use them for visual support. There's no question that there were high temperatures and red hot metal in the rubble. A number of witnesses confirm this.

    I'm sensing some a priori assumptions here. A bit of advocacy?

    Posted 15 years ago #
  6. mark
    Member

    Steven Jones and journalof911studies.com are not primary sources.

    A primary source for the "molten steel" claim is needed.

    Sorry that I find the "thermite" claims unpersuasive.

    I have also yet to read any demolition claim that discusses how the necessary electronics could function in the middle of the inferno or how the alleged explosives would remain undisturbed until the moment of collapse initiation. That seems to be at the core of any demolition claim.

    Is there a demolition theories that discusses the impacts of the collisions on the towers, as described by survivors who were inside (and below the impacts). It seems reasonable to assume that any effort to claim that the impacts and infernos didn't cause the collapses would have to precisely quantify the damage from the collisions.

    It seems reasonable that there was substantial structural failure from the impacts of large planes flying full speed into the structure, shattering numerous supports.

    Whoever (or whatever) was aiming those planes, it seems as if they were trying to topple one tower onto the other -- if the impact had been enough to induce a toppling over, it would have fallen onto the other one (that's the case for both collisions). But the towers stayed standing long enough for nearly everyone below the impact zones to escape.

    The "Towering Inferno" presentation didn't mention the impact of the collisions. Also, the claim that the south tower fires were small because the 78th floor wasn't that hot omits other claims that the fires were considerably bigger a couple of floors above the 78th ...

    I believe the towers were intentionally demolished -- by allowing the planes to be flown into them, and probably hijacking the autopilot to ensure that it happened.


    I have a legal case that will convict Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush, General Myers, right now in court based upon evidence that is not scientific in nature, I don't need to go there, that is a red herring when we focus on the crime that has been committed against this country. We've already proven who did it, the how doesn't have to be fully fleshed out. ... These discussions of what possibly induced that [collapse of the towers] is a major psychological operations campaign designed to keep the American people from looking at the evidence of guilt. -- Michael Ruppert, February 14, 2005, interview on KZYX, "The Party’s Over"


    The case of 9/11, now being tried in our metaphorical court of the corporate media and public perception, leaves no doubt as to who could produce more expert witness testimony or present them in the most impressive manner. ... It is something else to analyze the temperature at which steel is weakened and determining whether or not an unproven amount of burning jet fuel, in unspecified concentrations and unknown locations could have weakened steel supports in the World Trade Center to the point where an unspecified amount of weight might cause them to buckle. -- Michael Ruppert, Crossing the Rubicon: the Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil, pp. 13-14


    implosionworld.com

    A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of WTC Towers 1, 2 & 7 From an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint By Brent Blanchard August 6, 2006

    "for explosives to be considered as a primary or supplemental catalyst, one would have to accept that either a) dozens of charges were placed on those exact impact floors in advance and survived the initial violent explosions and 1100+ degree Fahrenheit fires, or b) while the fires were burning, charges were installed undetected throughout the impact floors and wired together, ostensibly by people hiding in the buildings with boxes of explosives. There is no third choice that could adequately explain explosives causing failure at the exact impact points.

    "The chemical properties of explosives and their reaction to heat render scenario A scientifically impossible and scenario B remarkably unlikely."

    Posted 15 years ago #
  7. JohnA
    Member

    I believe the towers were intentionally demolished -- by allowing the planes to be flown into them, and probably hijacking the autopilot to ensure that it happened.>

    ya know - for someone who seems to care so much for the scientific method - and casts such a critical eye towards the CD theory - you also throw the 'autopilot' theory out there like day-old bread - and call it a Soufflé.

    without one shred of evidence to back it up? and in direct contradiction to the existing cockpit audio-recordings and phone calls from the passengers?

    it kinda seems like a strange reversal in personality traits.

    i have not yet once seen autopilot subject discussed without it inexorably leading down the fetid path of cellphone fakery.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  8. I have raised an extremely important question and would kindly ask we stick to this question and not get sidetracked by diversions like Mark's recent post. I am most definitely not accusing Mark of anything but such diversions are regularly used to disrupt meaningful discussion, so we should always avoid succumbing to them.

    Again, the point is that the temperatures of molten metal would be too hot for the hydraulics of the heavy equipment. This implies those pictures are fake. Science trumps "eyewitness reports" every time.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  9. truthmod
    Administrator

    I'm not sure I follow the hydraulics argument. I think the temperatures at the site were very high--in certain places. But isn't heavy machinery used in such operations as this supposed to be fairly rugged and immune to high/low temperatures? It may have been 2500 degrees F in the puddle of molten whatever, but that doesn't mean that the ambient temperature would be anywhere near that.

    I feel a little ridiculous even discussing details like these. I agree with Mike Ruppert--these kinds of technical, physical, detail-oriented paths of questioning don't usually get us anywhere.

    Here is some machinery picking up a red hot or molten piece of metal. The hydraulics don't seem to be failing. But where did this photo come from and who is really going to care when it comes down to it? I choose not to follow the physical evidence avenue. While I appreciate that some people do research and promote it responsibly, I think that, in general, our inexpert speculation and promotion regarding physical evidence is a detriment to our cause.

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    Posted 15 years ago #
  10. JohnA
    Member

    you say:

    According to the article below most seals will be damaged at temperatures over 82°C (180°F). Steel melts at around 1370°C (2500°F).

    but in actuality the article says:

    Hydraulic fluid temperatures above 82°C (180ºF) damage most seal compounds and accelerate oil degradation.

    The article is stating that the temperature of the hydraulic fluid itself should not exceed these levels. can you prove that the actual hydraulic fluid itself exceeded these levels?

    can you give us the specs for the actual hydaulics used in those pictures?

    surely you are aware that engineers and companies like Honeycomb and other hydraulic seal manufacturers have developed stainless steel heat exchangers:

    Honeycomb structured stainless steel hydraulic heat exchangers are amazingly compact in size. The complex geometry offers a heat transfer co-efficient not available in any other industrial heat exchangers. It is a miraculous system for removal of Heat and Contamination from hydraulic or lubrication oil, consisting of a self driven fluid motor, air oil coolers and an online filter that do not require any additional/external power for operation.

    hell - hydraulics use Heat Exchangers for High-Temperature Fission and Fusion Applications. ya know - like nuclear power plants and stuff. those are pretty high temperatures - don'tcha' think?

    it seems to me that your claim that the photos are probably fake lacks credibility because you seem to want to hang your hat on this one article you have provided that woefully fails to address the actual conditions at ground zero - the actual equipment used - the insulation and heat exchange engineering therein - and the measurable heat transfer from the burning material to the hydraulic fluid itself.

    if you are indeed serious about discussing this topic you should re-evaluate provide more specifics regarding these variables.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  11. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks, John.

    I am most definitely not accusing Mark of anything but such diversions are regularly used to disrupt meaningful discussion, so we should always avoid succumbing to them.

    Yeah, I feel like this whole discussion on hydraulics is a frivolous diversion.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  12. truthmover
    Administrator

    Yeah, I feel like this whole discussion on hydraulics is a frivolous diversion.

    Agreed.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  13. Hmm the admins here see discussion of possible disinformation to be a frivolous diversion. Sorry, I mistook this forum for a place of serious discussion to uncover truth. Here, as in religion it seems, one cannot question the "truth".

    Posted 15 years ago #
  14. truthmover
    Administrator

    Why does this feel so much like the last time a thread sounded like this.

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/1434?replies=...

    Also, should I assume that this is you?

    http://www.vernon911truth.org/resources.html

    If so, I should suggest that we appear to have a different definition for disinformation.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  15. Arabesque
    Member

    I am a bit suspicious of the claims of molten metal beneath the three WTC buildings.

    Sorry, molten steel has been proven. The evidence is even in the dust. It is very hard to create molten steel unless you can produce the extreme temperatures needed.

    http://www.truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...

    Which by the way is more specific than the phrase "molten metal" which can mean any type of metal. Which have different melting points.

    Hmm the admins here see discussion of possible disinformation to be a frivolous diversion. Sorry, I mistook this forum for a place of serious discussion to uncover truth. Here, as in religion it seems, one cannot question the "truth".

    Ok whatever, troll. Truthmove remains one of the few sane places to discuss 9/11.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  16. truthmod
    Administrator

    Hmm the admins here see discussion of possible disinformation to be a frivolous diversion.

    Not quite. We have been consistently and brazenly deconstructing disinformation since our inception. We maintain a certain skepticism for the physical evidence side of 9/11 truth. We are glad to have the input of controlled demolition skeptics such as mark on our board, even if we do find the official collapse theory to be very suspicious.

    You weren't flamed here because you argued against evidence of controlled demolition--like you would be on most 9/11 truth boards. You were simply confronted on the merit of your information, and the tone and content of your words.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  17. mark
    Member

    re: autopilot

    Boeing has an uninterruptible autopilot called "auto land."

    It is of course pure speculation that this was used to "hijack the hijackers," but it could explain why Flight 77 was steered precisely into the nearly empty part of the Pentagon. It has nothing to do with the "no cell phone calls" nonsense.

    Of course, the best evidence is the many warnings that 9/11 was imminent which were deliberately ignored by the White House. There's also great evidence about the war game exercises, especially the "plane into building" scenario underway at the NRO as the "attacks" unfolded. These facts are not as sexy as demolition theories, but they do have the advantage of putting the enablers on the defensive - a reason the media coverage of 9/11 "truth" ignores them.

    Posted 15 years ago #

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