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Sander Hicks and Webster Tarpley on Youtube (27 posts)

1. christs4sale
   Administrator

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDGEy7PVqOs

   This is the first video of nine.

   I have always liked Hicks' book and the 9/11 topics he has chosen to pursue. I have always wanted to believe that his associations with people like Fetzer were just his past business associations creeping up on him. This video with Tarpley at such a late stage in the game does not look good. Joe Friendly is there to boot. I can only begin to imagine why Hicks would be seen with these people in this situation.

   Since I live close to Vox Pop and since the Manhattan Vox Pop is closed, I should have an opportunity to ask Hicks about this once Brooklyn Vox Pop reopens again. It had a sign posted about a month ago on the door that it was closed by the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. This being said, I will still keep going there. Here is Hicks' email about the situation dated 1/31/09:

   Dear Vox Pop Family and Friends,

   I'm sorry we've been closed for a couple days.

   Due to the financial criss, the City of New York is really coming down hard on people. We have an old set of fines to the Department of Health from 2007. DOH have been inflexible about this crazy amount, ($30,000) and it's mostly because of bureaucratic rules.

   We're using this chance to re-do the floors and improve the basement.

   We are running a clean place. We are always improving it.

   Our new money manager, Debi Ryan, is running a tight ship, and making lots off changes. The place really looks good, too.

   We want to be open again in a couple days.

   In the meantime, we have decided to close the Bowery Vox Pop location, due to the economy. We really tried hard here. So, yes, this is a tough time, but it shows that we really have to stick together. We have to listen to each other in a deeper way. We have to make time for each other. It really scares me these stories in the news about men murdering themselves and their five kids just to avoid an eviction. Economic recession is one thing, more horrible is living in a world in which no one listens. I'm praying hard we can all use this chance to renovate our hearts.

   If you want to talk to me, just email me or give me a call. 347 446 4461.

   Yours,

   Sander

   Posted 15 years ago #
2. emanuel
   Member

   There are just some people who don't seem to get that there are disinfo folks operating among us, or who don't believe it, or who are too career-focused to care and will ally with whomever gets them exposure, money, etc, or who simply have zero intuitive sense of who these people might be, so they ignore the issue. Is Sander in here somewhere?

   Here's another concept I've been mulling over lately too. I think a lot of people resist what they believe is paranoid-type thinking. For whatever reason, they just choose not to second-guess others. This is an admirable quality in one sense, and it does make life easier. I mean, who wants to go around being suspicious all the time. But it's not very practical to be this way, of course, because as we all know here, there are liars and cheaters out there--everywhere. In the realm of deep politics, it becomes even more difficult to ascertain who the dishonest people are, and so it becomes even easier for people to simply ignore the entire issue, and just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Then for everyone one of us pointing out the Webster Tarpley's, you have others claiming Tarpley is great and someone else is the disinfo operative. Without experience how can anyone know the truth in this mess? And even with experience (and this is my point) it takes courage to trust oneself in these kinds of assessments. One needs to have a solid mind, for example, that doesn't too easily tip to the paranoid side. One needs good intuition. One needs a willingness to challenge oneself, and not become too zealous in any position or stance. Most people do not have these qualities, and if you are missing even one of them you are likely to make bad assessments of who the disinfo people are. I think that most people don't have the courage to venture into such difficult terrain, because consciously or not, they know they wouldn't be good at it.

   Hence the big tent continues...

   Emanuel

   Posted 15 years ago #
3. truthmover
   Administrator

   The only things objectionable about Hicks from what I've seen are his choices about who he associates with. It can be difficult to dismiss someone or consider them a liability on that basis, and yet in this movement it's really significant and ultimately definitive.

   I appreciate the thought above that someone like Hicks might advocate the big tent because he doesn't want to appear to be ruled by paranoia. On the other hand, we have to resist the temptation to defend people we have respected by coming up with convenient excuses for what in this case is a history of bad judgment. The concerns to be had with people like Fetzer, Tarpley, or Les, are not paranoia, they are based on fact. And Hicks is too smart and informed to have missed the relevant problems.

   Therefore, and I obviously have no soft spot for him, Hicks is big tent, supports people who entirely undermine this movement, and should not be counted among those whose judgment we trust.

   Posted 15 years ago #
4. JohnA
   Member

   You should have been at the big 9/11 Truth event at Riverside Church in Harlem in 2004, when we had Scott Ritter and Hicks to talk. We promoted this event for months and drew 800 people.

   Hicks single-handedly destroyed the event - going up on stage and ranting and raving and screaming into the mic - citing important 'research' from Hustler magazine - and on and on.

   He ended up having to be pulled from the stage by Jamie Hecht.

   i will NEVER believe that this disruption was not intentional. i was there and i do not care what people think about my assessment. It was and still is my assessment that Hicks intentionally destroyed this event -and if his current behavior does not confirm this - i wonder how much evidence people DO need to finally draw the line on people.

   Posted 15 years ago #
5. emanuel
   Member

   Thanks JohnA. This is why this forum is so important. I was not at the event you speak of, but I was very active in the movement at that time (from Seattle), and NOBODY told me about Hicks' behavior. This is the first time I have heard about it. Nick, why did you not say something? Not that it would have made much of a difference to me. I mean I don't remember ever promoting Hicks' stuff anyway, but a heads up from Nicholas, say, would have been very helpful at the time nonetheless.

   Thins brings up the whole problem involved in verbalizing these kinds of assessments. Nobody wants to "snitch jacket" right? I mean it destabalizes the movement even more. But here's a story to think about.

   Back in 1999 I hired a consultant for my harm reduction/drug policy reform organization (DanceSafe) who ended up being a COINTEL operative and disrupting us BIG TIME. After I realized it was him, I started talking to others in the broader drug policy reform movement, and it turns out he disrupted another organization in the same way previously (the Drug Reform Coordination Network, DRCnet), yet nobody ever told me about this or warned me about him. When I spoke to the director of DRCnet, he told me that the reason he never warned me is because the disruptor got him to sign a "confidentiality agreement" not to speak about what happened. Supposedly there was dirty laundry all over that nobody wanted exposed. Whatever! This disruptor asked me to sign a similar confidentiality agreement and I told him to fuck off, and proceeded to tell everyone in the movement what he did and that I believed he was COINTEL.

   That's when the personal harrassment against me started, and my apartment was broken into and trashed, and a whisper campaign got started that I was suicidal (I have never been suicidal in my life). I fled the Bay Area and resigned from my organization (after making sure it was recovered and stable), and it is still around 11 years later, though it is not doing the same kind of radical drug policy orgnaizing it used to when I was there.

   Point is because of my experience I have a strong opinion that we need to warn people about potential provaceuters. There are better and worse ways to do this. Always important to focus on behaviors, for example, with as little speculation as possible. But it has to be done. I would have been saved from the most traumatic experience of my life if someone had warned me about this guy before I hired him.

   Emanuel

   Posted 15 years ago #
6. truthmover
   Administrator

   You are certainly among those of a common mind. And your presence is very appreciated. There are far too few people in this movement with experience outside or inside the movement that has made them duly skeptical. That story of yours is really dreadful. I really appreciate that you didn't sign the confidentiality agreement. It's like he was asking you to toss all your values out the window. Rough choice and awful consequences. But you did the right thing, outed an agent (Hooray!!!), and the world is a better place for it.

   Sander Hicks is an odd figure. A bit like Les Jamieson in his ability to skirt the edges of public legitimacy while regularly associating with suspect characters. He was, for instance, the MC at the Les' Ready for Mainstream conference in 2007, at which Tarpley declared that Cosmos looked just like a Chechen rebel and that everyone objecting to the Kennebunkport Warning must be intel agents. I also got to hear Alfred Webre state that the audience was being bombarded with a directed energy weapon that was responsible for the low turnout.

   But I wanted to express the thing that first made me feel like Hicks wasn't totally kosher. The first time I saw him he was speaking at St. Mark's Church at a meeting of NY911Truth. He got up and proceed to explain that he had a new look and attitude. He actually stated that he was trying to remake his image from something like this:

   

   To something like this:

   

   Although at that meeting he looked even more nerdy and awkward with a plaid sweater vest.

   Now, there's nothing wrong with outgrowing your youthful years of punkish angsty rebelliousness. But it just didn't ring true to me, seeming rather contrived. He seemed quite explicitly trying to rebrand himself for a different audience.

   He then proceeded to give a talk that was unfocused and hard to follow.

   It was certainly his future behavior, mentioned above, that really formed my opinion of him, but this was not an encouraging introduction.

   Posted 15 years ago #
7. truthmod
   Administrator

   emanuel -- good to hear of your work with DanceSafe. I remember them getting a lot of attention back in the rave days of the 1990s.

   Sander Hicks seems more and more like Les Jamieson Jr.

   Inaugurate Yourself Tour
   http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090106...

   This is the people’s US National Speaking Tour, winding across the US and ending January 20 at the Inauguration of President Barrack Obama. It's instigated by Sander Hicks, and co-hosted by writer Chic Migeot (author of “The Talk.”)

   Charles Carroll Migeot
   "About the Arthor"
   http://www.cczco.com/

   

   

   Posted 15 years ago #
8. Victronix
   Member

   THE REAL TRANSPARENCY CONFERENCE 9/11/09-9/13/09, NYC

   Working Paper Draft, Version 2.24.09

   Contact: Sander Hicks, facilitator, sander@voxpopnet.net,. 347 446 4461

   President Obama, you have promised transparency. But to the people who have been laboring for eight years under the brutal conditions of Bush/Cheney, real transparency means summoning a greater courage to tackle taboo topics.

   Here are four that can no longer go ignored: http://www.gnn.tv/blogs/31263/THE_REAL_TRANSPARENC...

   Posted 15 years ago #
9. Victronix
   Member

   From Jonathan Mark, doing the leadership teleconference on Wed . . .

   9/11 Truth Leaders monthly teleconference (Last Wednesday of each month)

   Wednesday 25 February 2009 - Beginning 9:00 pm east coast; 6:00 pm west coast

   Telephone number: 1 (218) 339-2699 Access code 737665 #

   . . . . Changing Agenda Who should be on this steering committee? Here's my draft list, thus far:

   9/11/9 Steering Committee

   Les Jamieson

   Chris Emery

   Luke Rudkowski (maybe)

   Kyle Hence

   Janice Matthews

   Betsy Metz

   Bruno Bruhwiler (maybe)

   I sent Sanders proposal to Cynthia McKinney, and suggest William Pepper, too.. so hopefully this call will help support a steering committee for this critical conference! Also.. would be wonderful to have Paul Craig Roberts present at this forum!

   Posted 15 years ago #
10. mark
    Member

    Understanding that the plane really did crash into the Pentacle is key for moving beyond the nonsense that sabotaged real efforts for accountability. While most people who still believe that hoax are sincere, that doesn't make this hoax any more true. But there are some egos who would have to admit they got fooled in the pursuit of truth, and rather than learn from their mistakes they continue to propagate them. Perhaps this is a reason why the truth movement seemed to peak a few years ago.

    And I still am not persuaded by claims for "demolition" -- but am persuaded that the media is delighted to have the "truth" movement focus on demolition theories while avoiding the documented issues of warnings, wargames and the "means, motive, opportunity" approach. It is not a coincidence that nearly everyone from Democracy Now! to Fox News took the exact same approach to the 9/11 Truth Movement.

    The issue isn't getting all of the truthers to agree, but to be more persuasive for the broader society beyond the so-called truth movement. As with many other Crimes of State, the real issues are WHY not HOW.

    The energy and environmental crises are the foundations for understanding economic collapse. Some of the false flag friends of "9/11 truth" have done their best to steer people away from Connecting those Dots.

    Posted 15 years ago #
11. NicholasLevis
    Member

    Vic,

    Please explain your post as I don't get it. Give us the Punch and Judy.

    If that's an e-mail from Jonathan Mark (who is that?) you should be careful about passing it around without knowing if the people on "my draft list, thus far" even know that their names have been put together on this list.

    Who's Bruno?

    Guess I've been out of it long enough to no longer know many of the "9/11 truth leaders." A concept from which the gods should save us.

    See ya!

    Posted 15 years ago #
12. truthmover
    Administrator

    Mark said:

    The issue isn't getting all of the truthers to agree, but to be more persuasive for the broader society beyond the so-called truth movement.

    And that is exactly many of the people listed above have proven themselves unable to do: respect principle before association. Value the strength of the message before that of the movement.

    I don't suspect that all the people listed above will participate. But if they do, the big tent they have created could do as much harm as it could do good.

    Posted 15 years ago #
13. Victronix
    Member

    If that's an e-mail from Jonathan Mark (who is that?) you should be careful about passing it around without knowing if the people on "my draft list, thus far" even know that their names have been put together on this list.

    It's just an email I got from him that he is passing around to a lot of people, so most would have already seen it. I've never met him but he promotes the NYC Ballot Initiative and things like basement bombs and "explosions before impact" at the WTC. I support none of those, although I know that some people consider the basement bombs issue to be "clear" -- I just don't. It's 100% based on eyewitnesses who are murky at best and "evidence" like the lobbies being damaged in a way people wouldn't have expected. It's not good to keep people focused on the murky stuff while ignoring the strong evidence already out there. But "bombs in the basement" makes for a good ghost story if you're telling a story to an audience.

    Posted 15 years ago #
14. NicholasLevis
    Member

    It's just an email I got from him that he is passing around to a lot of people, so most would have already seen it.

    That's not the point. How do you know some of them haven't seen it and told him they don't want to do it? You don't. From the beginning, passing around e-mails to mailing lists of murky composition, with lists of other names on them has been one of the ways in which this movement is disrupted (intentionally or not).

    And who's the Bruno?

    Agreed on "basement bombs" and especially "explosions before impact."

    .

    Posted 15 years ago #
15. truthmover
    Administrator

    First of all, Jonathan is flybynews.com and a regular over on 911blogger. And Bruno is the main dude in WAC LA. I found that out using a Google search.

    Considering that many of those people are at odds, it seems most likely that this list is the result of someone's overly optimistic idea of a unified action for the anniversary. It says, "Who SHOULD be on this steering committee." That's not exactly confidential information.

    This looks like the beginnings of a big tent event that may go in any number of directions. Registering our concern early might help steer things in a better direction. But more likely not.

    Posted 15 years ago #
16. christs4sale
    Administrator

    I responded to the post on Hicks' blog. He has also left Vox Pop. So much for being able to ask him these questions in person.

    My comment:

    Sander,

    I have read “The Big Wedding” and I feel that your the quality of your research is excellent and the investigative topics that you choose in relation to 9/11 are the right ones. This current idea has a lot of potential. The only downside that I see to this is who you sometimes have a history of associating with.

    Dr. James Fetzer: now promoting TV Fakery theories and other theories that can not be substantiated.

    Webster Tarpley: promoting the same theories as Fetzer, promoting a world-view that is identical to Lyndon LaRouche and calling all figures who criticized his performance around the Kennebunkport Warning COINTELPRO and agents of the Ford Foundation without any evidence. Does his book, 9/11 Synthetic Terror, contain foot or end notes?

    Les Jamieson: was caught distributing a newsletter published by the anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby. See: http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/12?replies=8 He organized the Ready for Mainstream conference in 2007, which mixed generally good presentations with those of Tarpley, Fetzer and Alfred Webber. He also is organizing the 9/11 Ballot Initiative, which is proposing to have Edgar Mitchell on its commission. He has bad-jacket written all over him.

    I realize that you run a business and that compromises you to a degree, but please watch out for the snakes that could sabotage this.

    Sander's reply:

    Christs4Sale:

    OK, I Googled Edgar Mitchell. He’s an astronaut and a mystic. From your name-dropping I thought he was a holocaust denier or pedophile, jeez! I would ask you to please be very careful, and use citations, and not just drop names like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Mitchell

    I don’t share Fetzer’s views on EMP or laser beam weaponry in the collapse of the towers. I have not seen a good case made for “no planes.” So I agree with you on that. And Tarpley’s book is good, well-written, with a broad three century knowledge of history. But you are right, the lack of footnotes, endnotes, etc. are a huge problem for me. The oversight betrays Tarpley’s good intentions. Personally, my interactions with Webster of late have been less than satisfying, but earlier, I’ve seen a dedicated activist/author/writer, laboring underground, with little compensation for his sweat.

    I don’t believe Les is working the other side. In my experience with “bad jacketing” it’s often the FBI who accuses activists of being FBI, so that dissent and doubt are sown like weeds among wheat. I’ve known Les for seven years, seen a lot of dedication. You, I don’t even know your name, but I’d invite you to share it and come into the light.

    And Johnny Civil: “9/11 is a mind control tag” reminds me of the great words of Public Enemy: “9-11 is a Joke!” Of course, they were referring to the emergency call number and how it works slowly in poor and black neighborhoods. Maybe that’s irrelevant, but I wanted to end on a lighter note.

    My intuition is that this will be like talking to a brick wall. Please go comment if you feel up to it.

    Posted 15 years ago #
17. JohnA
    Member

    Nicholas - didn't you once tell me that Hicks' father worked for NSA?

    Posted 15 years ago #
18. christs4sale
    Administrator

    My response:

    For more on Edgar Mitchell and UFOs, see these threads and Arabesque’s excellent blog:

    http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2008/08/nyc-911-b... http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/871 http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/1184

    Sander said:

    “In my experience with “bad jacketing” it’s often the FBI who accuses activists of being FBI, so that dissent and doubt are sown like weeds among wheat.”

    I agree completely. Read about Tarpley’s behavior here:

    http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/09/kennebunk... http://www.911blogger.com/node/11441

    About Les, please look at the literature that he was caught distributing. He originally was banned by Frank Morales for this. Later on, the decision was reversed and those who raised the issue were forced out of NY 9/11 Truth. Les lost his place on the 911truth.org Steering Committee over this as well.

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/12

    I have been involved with NY 9/11 Truth since 2004. I left in early 2007. As recently as last Fall, he was going to host Paula Gloria at St. Marks Church. This was long after her handling of the TV Fakery people began. Only after he heard her performance on Howard Stern with Nico did he stop it. Check out her Youtube channel if you need more.

    I believe that you proposed that Les step down during the confrontation between Luke and Les according to We Are Change. I am not affiliated with We Are Change btw.

    http://www.wearechange.org/ny911truth/index.html

    Posted 15 years ago #
19. christs4sale
    Administrator

    I should also add that Sander has left Vox Pop for a career in alternative energy financing.

    http://sander.gnn.tv/blogs/31066/Why_I_resigned_fr...

    John, in the Big Wedding, he says that the CIA asked if he wanted to work for them.

    Posted 15 years ago #
20. JohnA
    Member

    why haven't they asked me?

    whatta ya gotta do around here to get a decent civil service job?

    Posted 15 years ago #
21. truthmover
    Administrator

    Saying that you got denied indicates a fair chance that you got recruited. Why? Because before you get recruited, you are likely to tell friends and family about it. But once you accept, the agency doesn't want anyone to know about it, so you would naturally be told to tell everyone that you decided against it.

    I just want to say that the game has changed in this country, now that Obama is in office, I think certain hybrid systems of capitalism/social consciousness could be tried. It’s time to grab bigger “guns,” in a nonviolent way. I need a bigger platform on which to work. I’m projected to be managing a Bond Fund that is going to put $100 MM into alternative energy. Compare that to running a coffeehouse company that just pulled in $414K in sales. Sort of pales in comparison.

    Is he for real? "I'm projected"??? What the hell does that mean? He didn't have to apply for the job. What kind of qualifications does he have? And how did he get involved?

    This doesn't quite pass the smell test to me.

    Posted 15 years ago #
22. JohnA
    Member

    another possible answer is that he is - dare i say it - a liar.

    Posted 15 years ago #
23. Victronix
    Member

    I’ve known Les for seven years, seen a lot of dedication. You, I don’t even know your name, but I’d invite you to share it and come into the light.

    It's a red flag no matter how you slice it. Opinion, mistaken, unaware or whatever . . . steer clear.

    The best way to defeat big tent -- and agents or just average people involved in keeping that alive -- is to organize events and information around the issues that you feel are most powerful and pushing it out there. I honestly believe that the genuine nature of the work that comes from people inspired by the best evidence outdoes Big Tent every time. If we do the work we are automatically ahead. But we have to do the work and make the time.

    Posted 15 years ago #
24. christs4sale
    Administrator

    Victronix,

    Thanks for waking me up and making me realize a very clear thing. I will steer clear.

    I was really on the fence with this wanting to believe that his associations were just his naivete or maybe his business dealings, but a reasonable, critical-thinking activist would have seen Les and Tarpley's actions and would not stick up for them at this point.

    This is the second time I have learned this lesson here.

    Posted 15 years ago #
25. truthmover
    Administrator

    I’ve known Les for seven years, seen a lot of dedication. You, I don’t even know your name, but I’d invite you to share it and come into the light.

    What crap. Totally fallacious. Because he doesn't know who you are your concerns aren't valid. You were perfectly cordial and he came back with snotty BS.

    Also, claiming dedication is so totally big tent mentality. Commitment is not more important than validity. Maybe in some other movement, but not this one.

    Christs4sale, thanks for writing him. His response is fairly revealing.

    Posted 15 years ago #

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