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Gaining the legal leverage to gain access to actionable testimony (9 posts)

  1. Diane
    Member

    In the thread Letest from Journal of 9/11 Studies - Remote controlled planes JohnA wrote:

    9/11 activism is NOT about selling ideas. it is about gaining the legal leverage to gain access to actionable testamony - thru subpoena power - and people power - to get to the TRUTH.

    I agree totally.

    I would be interested in the thoughts of anyone here on how we can make progress toward that goal. Not just what's wrong with the one and only already-existing current effort that I'm aware of (the New York 9/11 Ballot Initiative), but what we can and should DO by way of working toward that goal.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. chrisc
    Member

    I know nothing about Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, I just saw this on 9/11 Blogger and it reminded me of this thread...

    An impressive, if small, group of lawyers has signed a petition calling for 9/11 truth at a new website called Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, at http://www.L911T.com/ .

    If you know any judges, law professors or attorneys open to 9/11 truth, send them that way.

    http://911blogger.com/node/18420

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. truthmover
    Administrator

    9/11 activism is NOT about selling ideas. it is about gaining the legal leverage to gain access to actionable testamony - thru subpoena power - and people power - to get to the TRUTH.

    I'm starting a step back from that summary. John has certainly offered more comprehensive summaries in the past. Some of our best. But securing a new investigation with enough money and access to achieve any important goal is not necessarily likely. The likelihood should certainly be seriously considered.

    The 9/11 crime is so well hidden within compartmentalized operations, plausible deniability, sealed records, and Presidential pardons, that it might actually not be possible to conduct a meaningful investigation. We could hold the inquiry, but we're not getting Cheney to testify. Some good would certainly come of it, but then what would the movement be the day after it ended? And if we don't secure a new investigation, are all our efforts in vain?

    I'd argue that this movement is most generally about transparency. We work against the secrecy of our government and the complicity of our mainstream news. We want people to care about valid information. So we create, organize, and promote valid information, much of which contradicts mainstream views.

    Once again, I think a new investigation would do some good. But I think it might damage momentum in the future if we oversell it's likely benefit. Without any investigation I am quite satisfied that the movement has been and will be making progress in opening more people's eyes to the volume of information they haven't been seeing.

    I'm still just shooting for critical mass. Can we get enough people to be skeptical of the official account that this skepticism becomes a part of the zeitgeist of our time?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. JohnA
    Member

    personally i would like to see just ONE solid avenue of investigation - with real legal legs.

    the 911 Ballot inititiave is flawed for reasons we won't go into here.

    but - putting that aside - it is also overly ambitious in that its stated goal is to investigate 9/11. that's a tall order - especially for amateurs like Ed Asner. and I agree with TruthMover that it seems like it would be relatively easy for the government to block.

    Ideally - i would love to see just ONE smoking gun gain traction - and trigger subpoenas.

    for example: getting sworn testimony regarding what Minetta heard in the bunker - what the "orders' were - who the young officer was who challenged them - when Cheney arrived - and what EXACTLY went down that day in the bunker. Unless multiple people are willing to perjure themselves - it would be hard for them to contain.

    another example: issuing subpoenas to challenge NORAD's accounting of events. we received 3 timelines of events - all of which were confirmed as inaccurate by the 911 commissioners themselves. why? what WAS the timeline, chain of command and chain of orders exactly?

    another example: subpoena the secret service to determine why the president was not moved to a secure location after it was clear america was under attack.

    we only need ONE solid conviction - ONE proven case of obstruction or complicity - to blow the whole story wide open.

    and i think we all know - the one issue we should pursue should be voice morphing.

    (i couldn't resist)

    i wonder if we could raise money to file a civil lawsuit against just one target - like Minetta. it would be groundbreaking.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. truthmod
    Administrator

    Besides continuing grassroots activism, one of our best opportunities might be in lobbying for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as Dennis Kucinich has called for.

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080922/kucinich

    America must move from the errant, retributive justice of 9/11 to a healing, restorative process of truth and reconciliation.

    Before the Congress adjourns, I will bring forth a new proposal for the establishment of a National Commission on Truth and Reconciliation, which will have the power to compel testimony and gather official documents to reveal to the American people not only the underlying deception which has divided us, but in that process of truth seeking set our nation on a path of reconciliation.

    It is not simply 9/11 that needs to be remembered. We also need to remember the politicization of 9/11 and the polarizing narrative which followed, locking us into endless conflict, a war on terror which has wrought further terror worldwide and which has severely damaged our standing worldwide as an honorable, compassionate nation. As we were all victims of 9/11, so we have become victims of the interpretation of 9/11.

    This would be like a new Church Committee, but even broader, investigating abuses throughout the intelligence community, executive, and legislative branches. There will be plenty of support for such a commission from millions of people who don't think we can just put the abuses and crimes of the Bush years behind us. The 9/11 cover up could play a significant role, alongside the issues of torture, surveillance, illegal wars, propaganda, etc.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. Diane
    Member

    Good to see Kucinich was re-elected, according to this New York Times page. But I find nothing on his official website about the "Truth and Reconciliation" proposal. Hopefully he'll introduce it sometime soon.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. Diane
    Member

    About Lawyers for 9/11 Truth: Its petition isn't directed to anyone in particular. It doesn't seem to be a targeted effort, just a bunch of people taking a public stand in favor of a new investigation.

    JohnA wrote:

    Ideally - i would love to see just ONE smoking gun gain traction - and trigger subpoenas.

    for example: getting sworn testimony regarding what Minetta heard in the bunker - what the "orders' were - who the young officer was who challenged them - when Cheney arrived - and what EXACTLY went down that day in the bunker. Unless multiple people are willing to perjure themselves - it would be hard for them to contain.

    another example: issuing subpoenas to challenge NORAD's accounting of events. we received 3 timelines of events - all of which were confirmed as inaccurate by the 911 commissioners themselves. why? what WAS the timeline, chain of command and chain of orders exactly?

    [...]

    we only need ONE solid conviction - ONE proven case of obstruction or complicity - to blow the whole story wide open.

    [...]

    i wonder if we could raise money to file a civil lawsuit against just one target - like Minetta. it would be groundbreaking.

    Well, if you or anyone else here can get a bunch of longtime 9/11 Truth activists willing to put together such an effort, I would certainly be glad to support it.

    I personally am not comfortable participating in 9/11 Truth activism without some concrete goal to point to, such as a specific effort toward a new investigation. Hence, despite its flaws, I support the NYC ballot initiative. But I'd love it if some knowledgeable and conscientious longtime activists were to come up with something better.

    Posted 15 years ago #
  8. Diane
    Member

    Is there any chance that the Justice for 9/11 complaint could be revived, now that Spitzer is no longer in charge?

    Posted 15 years ago #
  9. Diane
    Member

    truthmover wrote:

    The 9/11 crime is so well hidden within compartmentalized operations, plausible deniability, sealed records, and Presidential pardons, that it might actually not be possible to conduct a meaningful investigation. We could hold the inquiry, but we're not getting Cheney to testify.

    As JohnA has already pointed out, and as I'm inclined to agree, quite a bit of information has already come out that may well be legally actionable and could probably lead to the exposure of quite a bit more info -- even if we can't get Cheney to testify.

    There are plenty of whistleblowers we could rally behind, for example.

    Some good would certainly come of it, but then what would the movement be the day after it ended?

    Surely there is no shortage of other worthy political causes we could then support? And, after a truly independent investigation of 9/11, surely the American public would then be in a better position to understand other issues too?

    And if we don't secure a new investigation, are all our efforts in vain?

    [...]

    Without any investigation I am quite satisfied that the movement has been and will be making progress in opening more people's eyes to the volume of information they haven't been seeing.

    My thoughts:

    1) Without a concrete political goal to point to, such as a new investigation, it seems to me that convincing people that 9/11 is or might have been an inside job is more likely to lead people to despair than to responsible citizenship. Too many Americans already believe that political action of any kind is pointless, when in fact many grassroots political movements have had many successes (though not consistently, of course).

    2) It seems to me that we should be able to succeed in winning some kind of new investigation, especially on a local level (easier than winning anything on a federal level), given the poll numbers already in our favor. We just need a sufficiently well-organized effort, it seems to me.

    Posted 15 years ago #

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