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NIST: "Fire" Caused WTC 7 “Collapse” when FEMA said Fuel Ex. "improbable" (8 posts)

  1. Arabesque
    Member

    http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2008/08/wtc-7-rep...

    NIST Concludes "Fire" Caused WTC 7 “Collapse” when FEMA Report Concluded Fuel Tank Explosion had "low probability” of Knocking Down Tower

    NIST claims "fire" had better chance of knocking down tower than planted explosives in bizarre response to interview question

    NIST has finally released their final report into the collapse of Building 7, which collapsed inexplicably on 9/11. The New York Times quoted Sunder who said, "[The] reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery... It did not collapse from explosives or fuel oil fires.” Earlier, Sunder was scratching his head, saying, "We’ve had trouble getting a handle on Building No. 7." Similarly, the collapse baffled FEMA who lamely concluded, "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence.” In other words, FEMA thought that a diesel fuel explosion would have been improbable as a cause for the collapse of WTC 7, but now NIST is asserting that only mere "fires" knocked it down? A 9/11 blogger named Buru Dragon comments on NIST's press conference saying:

    [A] reporter appeared to temporarily stump Sunder with a very basic but perfect question. Throughout the presentation Sunder spoke about building seven as if it were particularly susceptible to collapse by even moderate fires because of the design. However Sunder would later go on to explain that it would require a very large amount of explosives to bring it down by demolition... "if the buildings were so vulnerable to collapse due to regular fires alone, wouldn’t they also be equally vulnerable to failure with just a small number of explosives?" Sunder... proceeded to stumble through some convoluted explanation for why only fire could be responsible... [seeming] caught off guard and uncomfortable.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. Manatus
    Member

    Thanks for the comprehensive evaluation of this latest "official" conclusion. We all know this is a load of crap, but it's good to classify the facts and history repeatedly for the sake of preserving the truth in the face of the flood of disinfo.

    This appears to be the final nail in the coffin for any legitimate reinvestigation. Maybe that idea was too idealistic from the start. If a legitimate reinvestigation of 9/11 is not practical, what is the next best overall objective the truth movement can focus its resources on?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. truthmover
    Administrator

    This appears to be the final nail in the coffin for any legitimate reinvestigation. Maybe that idea was too idealistic from the start. If a legitimate reinvestigation of 9/11 is not practical, what is the next best overall objective the truth movement can focus its resources on?

    I'm not sure if I'm following you here. We can add this NIST report to the list of our references that very clearly demonstrate a cover-up. It's so full of holes that it actually supports our call for a new investigation. And the 9/11 truth movement is not founded on the strength of the physical evidence.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. mark
    Member

    It wasn't founded on the claim of "physical evidence" but that's where most of the noise is now. And the outcome of that shift was predicted, accurately, in "Truth and Lies of 9/11" (Nov. 2001).


    Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories

    Mike King

    Captain Chris Boyle (Engine 94) with 18 years of service with the FDNY gave this interview: Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7?

    Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn’t know exactly what it was, but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site.

    … We went one block north over to Greenwich and then headed south. There was an engine company there, right at the corner. It was right underneath building 7 and it was still burning at the time. They had a hose in operation, but you could tell there was no pressure. It was barely making it across the street. Building 6 was fully involved and it was hitting the sidewalk across the street. I told the guys to wait up.

    A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

    But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

    So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

    Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

    Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

    Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

    Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

    http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz...

    Here is an extract from the testimony of Deputy Chief Peter Hayden, who had 33 years service in Division 1 to his credit:

    Firehouse: Other people tell me that there were a lot of firefighters in the street who were visible, and they put out traffic cones to mark them off?

    Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

    Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

    Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

    www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden...

    I believe that the testimony of experienced fireman ought to give most sober-minded people very serious doubt about the CD hypothesis, in particular the account of the sagging of the building prior to collapse, the assertion by Hayden that it was a heavy fire, and the testimony regarding lack of water pressure to fight the blaze.

    Boyle’s report suggested that the debris caused a huge gash of twenty storeys in that face, which would allow for the flow of air to the fires simply unprecedented in fires in similar buildings.

    All the evidence suggests that WTC 7 was unique in the history of fire-fighting because (a) structural damage was extensive, (b) vast openings in the south face allowing unimpeded airflow, (c) water mains had been severed by the collapse of the Towers, and hence almost no water was available to the Fire Service, and (d) the Fire Service had anyway made the eminently reasonable policy decision that their priority was to save lives not buildings, so it burned for 7 hours virtually unattended. Also, the bulging of the building prior to collapse is also prime evidence against the CD theory, because controlled demolition never produces such bulges.

    In this section Jones also wants to argue that the fine rubble produced in the WTC 7 collapse is evidence of explosives:

    Jones: By contrast, concrete floors in the Twin Towers and WTC 7 were pulverized to dust -- as is common in controlled demolitions using explosives.

    But we have already pointed out that concrete floors, if they are pulverised to dust in controlled demolition, are pulverised due to gravity, not explosives. This is a core mistake repeated by Jones and other CD theorists.

    Brent Blanchard deals with WTC 7 in section 7 of his paper. He refutes the claim that the owner of WTC 7 had any role in its collapse, and also says: 'Any detonation of explosives within WTC 7 would have been detected by multiple seismographs monitoring ground vibration in the general area. No such telltale "spike" or vibratory anomaly was detected by any recording instrument.'

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. Arabesque
    Member

    I'd just like to point out that the NIST report is ignoring evidence already mentioned in the FEMA report.

    The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." 2 WPI provides a graphic summary of the phenomenon. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurg...

    It is not a "physical evidence" argument to point out a cover-up has occurred when evidence is deliberately ignored--in this case evidence that the FEMA report has already acknowledged. This "deep mystery" has been put into the "memory hole" by NIST--straight out of Orwell's 1984.

    Jones: By contrast, concrete floors in the Twin Towers and WTC 7 were pulverized to dust -- as is common in controlled demolitions using explosives. But we have already pointed out that concrete floors, if they are pulverised to dust in controlled demolition, are pulverised due to gravity, not explosives. This is a core mistake repeated by Jones and other CD theorists.

    Yes, pulverization occurs due to gravity. However, This is not a "mistake" that Jones makes since the "gravity" can only occur when steel members are "cut". In other words, if the members are not cut, the building will not collapse in on itself. Pulverization is still a characteristic of demolition, but it's not an effect of the explosives, it's an effect of potential energy of building collapse--which is only made possible through "cutting" structural support.

    Having said this, it is a mistake in the sense that is confused by people who claim that "explosives" caused pulverization. David Ray Griffin for example makes this claim. The actual pulverization is caused by the building implosion--not the explosives themselves. Classic CD is designed to conserve money. In other words to use as little explosives as possible--they are simply used to cut columns--not explode a building into a million pieces.

    There are no known examples of modern--steel framed buildings collapsing (excluding of course, those claimed to have occurred on 9/11) due to "fire"--which is what NIST admits and claims happened. Even the surrounding buildings beside the WTC towers did not completely collapse after massive chunks of the towers fell on them. The OK city bombing is another example of a (concrete reinforced) building decimated by an explosion. The building still stood afterward with a gaping hole in it. In fact, Controlled demolition inc. and members from the NIST team were also involved in the OK city bombing.

    There are even several examples of failed controlled demolitions because not all of the charges went off. Buildings are designed to survive structural damage. WTC 7 was also designed to survive structural damage.

    "We built in enough redundancy to allow entire portions of floors to be removed without affecting the building's structural integrity."

    All modern buildings are designed to survive structural damage so that they will not collapse easily and kill the occupants.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. truthmod
    Administrator

    Very healthy debate here. Thanks, mark and Arabesque. The pulverization issue is important to clarify. I myself had usually assumed that the supposed explosives would have played a part in the dustification of concrete slabs. But I see the point about gravity and agree that that is more likely the culprit.

    I think questioning our sureness about Controlled Demolition is very healthy. I suspect there are many people out there who cannot imagine changing their own beliefs/assumptions about this issue. This is a mind-blowing topic. I think it was probably instrumental in some kind of "paradigm shift" for many in this movement. It's not an easy thing to question, consider, or conclude, and it's not an easy thing to question again, once you've made your mind up. But I think that is what we must do, honestly, politely, rationally.

    I don't like to resort to the sort of "common sense" arguments that are often ignorantly used against our cause, but I do think such consideration is sometimes valuable.

    • The consistency/perfection of the operation (i.e. the clean, complete demo of 1 and 2 and later 7) is hard to believe could be engineered without the use of explosives or other reliable means

    • The psychological impact, in terms of trauma, social control, and mass manipulation really seemed to rely on the total collapse/destruction. The timing seemed engineered for a live TV audience.

    • Demolition helped greatly in evidence destruction

    • Demolition is loud and sensational; it's a blockbuster movie; it distracts from dryer evidence and areas of possible complicity.

    • Demolition is a win-win, in that it serves the above purposes, and causes a great perceptual rift between those who "see it" and those who don't

    • If the operation was "engineered" on some (very high) level, would the planners leave collapse of the towers up to chance/luck, one way or another.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. Arabesque
    Member

    I recommend the implosion world website which gives a brief history of CD.

    In the early 1980s, an economic recession was beginning to be felt in the United States and staying profitable was the name of the game. This meant that increased importance was given to calculating the minimum amount of explosives necessary to complete a given project. This in turn led to a greater dependence on the "test blast"- a procedure initially recommended by powder-company consultants wherein a blaster removes a few columns with varying amounts of explosives to physically observe the results. http://www.implosionworld.com/history3.htm

    In other words, the explosives are not for "blowing up" the building, but cutting supports. The less used, the more money saved.

    What I find interesting is that Mark Loizeaux, president of controlled demolition inc. made a number of false statements, even directly contradicted by his own website on the BBC piece on building 7.

    Controlled demolition inc. was involved in the clean-up and demolition of the Oklahoma city bombing. After a "truck bomb" failed to take out the Alfred P. Murrah building, CDI was tasked to set charges and demolish the building. You can read the press release here: http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?r...

    CDI crews worked on a fast-track basis to prepare the structure for subsequent explosives placement. Less than 150 pounds of explosives placed in 420 locations was used to fell the structure.

    You can see how extensive the damage to the building was in photos here. Noteworthy is that the building did not completely collapse even after such extensive damage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Murrah_Fede...

    CDI was involved at the "clean-up" at Ground Zero along with the demolition of several buildings surrounding the world trade center. Many of these buildings had massive chunks of the twin towers fall on them, and they did not completely collapse. WTC 7 was the only exception.

    Another connection to 9/11 and Oklahoma city is this:

    Initial ASCE team leaders (9/14/01)

    • Gene Corley
    • Charles Thornton
    • Paul Mlaker
    • Mete Sozen
    • Other volunteers

    OKC Murrah building report authors

    • Gene Corley
    • Charles Thornton
    • Paul Mlaker
    • Mete Sozen
    Posted 16 years ago #
  8. Manatus
    Member

    This appears to be the final nail in the coffin for any legitimate reinvestigation. Maybe that idea was too idealistic from the start. If a legitimate reinvestigation of 9/11 is not practical, what is the next best overall objective the truth movement can focus its resources on?

    I'm not sure if I'm following you here. We can add this NIST report to the list of our references that very clearly demonstrate a cover-up. It's so full of holes that it actually supports our call for a new investigation. And the 9/11 truth movement is not founded on the strength of the physical evidence.>

    It's been clear it's a coverup for years. What I mean is they are dragging this out so blatently. No amount of evidence of their deceipt is changing this. How can we expect the perpetrators to legitimately investigate themselves? They'll string us along with this obstruction until this event becomes irrelevant due to the next paradigm shifting event. This "official conclusion" was a litmus test of that.

    Posted 16 years ago #

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